Hello Cranerunfarm. Given the situation you've presented, of a man divorced (because of his wife's infidelity) and subsequently he has remarried, my view is that he should be ineligible for such a Church appointment.
Given the passage in 1 Timothy 3:12 ("Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well"), I understand that the Apostle Paul's instruction to Timothy on this matter was strongly influenced by the marriage/relationship culture of the day. And that was one of polygamous liberties prevalent at that time. So the apostle's clear instruction was that a deacon, as also with the 'bishop/elder/presbyter' (v2), was not to be appointed to this worthy and responsible position in Christ's Church if he was married to more than one wife at the one time.
But what if that man was not in a polygamous relationship but was divorced because of his wife's adultery and has since remarried? If we consider the Lord's Word on this matter, we can believe that a spouse was free to remarry if the divorce was necessitated because of fornication/adultery by the other spouse ( Matthew 19:7-9). Whereas the Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7:10,11, indicates that if one separates/divorces from the other, then then they should remain single. But Paul doesn't specifically refer to fornication/adultery as being the cause for the separation; physical or mental abuse could also be a cause.
So, if we consider both these passages in relation to the example you gave, although there appears to be permission for a remarriage when unfaithfulness has occurred by the wife, would this be the right example and clear testimony before the Church, for a person's appointment to the diaconate? What would happen if this second marriage fails for a similar reason, is the deacon's position still tenable? I'm sure, various Church administrations would have their own understanding and applications on this difficult matter, but I would be very careful.
Christ is omnipresent and not bound by the limits of time or space. When Jesus promised in Matthew 28:20, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world," He declared His constant presence with every believer, no matter where they are. David proclaimed in Psalm 139:7-10, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." This eternal reality points us to Christ as God in the flesh ( 1 Timothy 3:16), unlimited in His power and presence.
When Jesus walked the earth, His physical body was localized, but after His resurrection and glorification, He transcended all limitations. In John 14:18, He promised, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." This is fulfilled through His Spirit indwelling each believer ( Colossians 1:27, Romans 8:9-10). At the same time, He intercedes at the right hand of God ( Hebrews 7:25), proving He can be present in heaven and in the hearts of His people simultaneously.
Christ Himself said in Matthew 18:20, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Paul declared in Galatians 2:20, "Christ liveth in me." Yet John also saw Him walking among the seven churches ( Revelation 1:13). These passages show that Christ is not confined but active everywhere at once.
This truth is a source of comfort: He hears the cry of the saint in a prison cell, strengthens the missionary across the seas, and walks beside you today. Truly, He is Emmanuel, "God with us" ( Matthew 1:23), never distant, never absent, always present to guide, comfort, and uphold His people.
If your "battle" is with believing that Jesus is God, may I suggest the following scriptures for your consideration:
Genesis 1:1 along with John 1:1-3, Revelation 19:13, Colossians 1:15-17, Matthew 1:23, John 10:30, John 14:9, Mark 2:5-7, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, Philippians 2:5-7, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:8, John 5:18, 1 John 5:20, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, Acts 10:25-26, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 22:13, Micah 5:2, John 17:5, John 1:14. There are more, but these should suffice.
You mention that "Christians say that there is no separation between Christ and God," and that the bible shows otherwise. Jesus said I and my Father are one, and He also said that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. This may not mean anything to you, but in the book of Hebrews, Jesus is described as the APOUGASMA (the out beam) of God's glory, God projecting Himself through the time/space factor in the person of Christ. Jesus Christ, being God, was never separated from the source. This is why Jesus can say if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.
The best example I can give would be taking a flashlight in a dark room and shining it on a wall. The flashlight is the source, and the light is projected on the wall from the source. There is no separation unless the flashlight is turned off. Now, imagine the flashlight being God, and the light shining on the wall is Jesus, again, no separation. Jesus is said to be the true light which came down from heaven, the APOUGASMA of God.
If you are sincerely struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ (Him being God), I hope these scriptures I've provided might help. Also, if you would like, I can share my personal understanding on Matthew 26:39 and Luke 22:42 and why Christ would ask this.
If I may ask, are you a Christian? If so, who do you say Jesus is?
Please know that I was not accusing you of being a Jehovah's Witness. I already knew you did not belong to any specific group as you have mentioned this in the past. Brother, if I rather you not post, I would have told you so. Please continue to post. As I have mentioned to you before, I always enjoy our conversations. They are always kind and respectful.
I do agree with you 100% that "preconceived biases can blind us." Amen to that!
As far as truth goes, I like to think that you have truth, I have truth, and every true believer has truth. You see, to me truth is not what you and I believe or say, and not what anyone else believes or says. To me truth is a person, and that person is Jesus Christ. If you and I have Christ, we have the truth!
You and I have been here in this forum for several years (10 plus for me) and we've had several good discussions and Lord willing, I hope to have many more. Over the years, I have never told anyone that they are wrong. I may disagree with someone, but that doesn't mean they are wrong, it just means I disagree.
As to your question, I would answer by saying that Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh. God came in human form, nothing less. He was 100% God and 100% man. 1 Timothy 3:16 reads, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
We both agree that God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus says in John 2:19, "Destroy this temple (speaking of His body), and in three days I will raise it up," Jesus says "I" will raise it up. How could this be unless Jesus is God? Just something to think about.
Ronald, please do not think that I don't value the things you have to share or that I want you to stop posting. That bothers me brother that you might think this. We are here to lift each other up!
I did read your earlier post but not before you posted the second time. I'm not sure what you mean by a "Wonderful time" lady, but I can share my thoughts on this.
A man, whether he is a pastor or not is free to re-marry if his current spouse dies. You asked about this pastor justifying getting remarried to a "wonderful time" lady by using Titus 1:6. I would say that Titus 1:6 has nothing to do with his situation. What bothers me about this is that this pastor is having a wonderful time with another woman while his wife is still alive. It should not matter that his current wife is critically ill. He is still required to be faithful to his wife. No man, especially a pastor should become involved with another woman while he is still married. Even though there may not be anything sexual or romantic going on, there is still the appearance of evil which every believer is to avoid.
We see this same phrase "husband of one wife" in 1 Timothy 3:2. As I share before when I went through 1 Timothy, it is literally a one-woman man. That's the way it reads in the Greek text. It doesn't have anything to do with marriage, divorce, or re-marriage. It means to be a one-woman man, faithful to one wife.
I hope this helps. Thank you so much for your message.
1 Timothy 3:10 - And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
And let these also first be proved, or tested; then let them serve in the office of deacon, after they are found to be blameless. Again, unimpeachable.
1 Timothy 3:11 - Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
It says wives, or women likewise, again working off the verb (to be) in Verse 2. Now there are four things:
The wives must be grave, that is, serious in their approach to the things and handling of the things of God. Secondly, not slanderers. Thirdly, vigilant, or sober in their thinking, watchfulness, attentiveness. And lastly, faithful to Christ in all things.
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Now the Spirit speaks clearly. There wasn't any doubt about what God's Spirit was saying in these days about the warning in the church. Notice that it says that in the latter times. Literally, in later times. And notice that times is plural. What he's saying is that beginning at his era, his time, and this will progressively go for several epics, or eras. And as time in history goes on, apostasy from the faith is going to grow worse.
Depart is the word APOSTASIA. It's the Greek word for apostasy. Apostasy means moving away from a fixed position. They had a fixed position in Christ doctrinally, but they have been moved. The term falling away is APOSTASIA.
Theologians have labeled latter times from the ascension of Christ, to His second coming. Those are all the latter days. He is indicating for us that things are going to get worse as far as getting away from the faith. Please notice it doesn't say church. It says the faith. All true doctrine will encourage and teach people to put their trust in Christ for everything.
1 Timothy 3:8 - Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
It says likewise, and the word must is in italics because this word likewise is still forming off of the word (to be), back in Verse 2. It is necessary for bishop or overseer to be presently in a certain condition, having 16 characteristics of maturity in the things of the Lord. So likewise, also, deacons are to be. It's working off of the same verb.
As we see in Verse 8, likewise it is necessary for deacons to be grave. It literally means to be serious about the work of the Lord. Take it seriously! Secondly, not doubletongued. We call it two-faced, not saying one thing to one person and one thing to another. We are not a salesman who compromises trying to make everybody happy.
Thirdly, not given to much wine. That sounds like a loophole. Later on, Paul is going to tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs' sake. In those days, the water was not good to drink, and so they would mix the water with wine. According to some accounts, it was nine parts water with one part wine. It was not the same alcohol content that we have today.
There is a lot of controversy about whether it's right for Christians to drink alcoholic. But back then, if you would drink the wine fresh off the vine, it was used for medicinal purposes for a settling of the stomach, because the water was so bad. So, when Paul says the deacons are not to be given to much wine, he's not saying they cannot have any at all because they might need some wine for their stomachs' sake. But just so you know, it was nothing like the wine we have today.
Fourthly, not greedy of filthy lucre; this literally means not being greedy for shameful gain. It's a shame for a leader in the church, let alone a Christian, but more so a leader to be striving for and coveting and making the goal of their life materialism and money. It's called shameful gain.
1 Timothy 3:7 - Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Lastly, it says, "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without;" That is, those outside of the church, the non-believers. Now they might not like him. They might say "I don't believe in his doctrine. I don't like him because he's a Christian." But that has nothing to do with it. What is his reputation with the people outside of the church? So, he has to have a reputation in and out!
But is says that he must have a good report, or good testimony, of those which are without, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. A trap! The devil can trap him by saying "Well, you know 5 years ago, when you punched that guy out" nobody knows about it, but then after you're in position of leadership, then Satan loves to bring things up and trap people with bad reports.
1 Timothy 3:4 - One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
He has to be somebody who rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Gravity doesn't mean the law of gravity. But basically, here's a person who is ruling his own house well, and has his children in subjection. There's a difference between subjection and submission. Submission is something that you're asked to do voluntarily. Subjection means you're told to do it. So, the ruler of the household basically has to have his children in subjection to him. With all respect. That's what gravity means. It stands for the Greek word that has to do with respect and reverence.
The 15th characteristic is in Verse 6.
1 Timothy 3:6 - Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
He says not a novice. Most people interpret novice as a new believer, you can't be young in the Lord, you can't be new, somebody that has to have the things of the Lord worked out in him. But the word for novice has to do with agriculture. It has to do with a sprout that is growing out of the ground. It's the condition of early seedlings popping the sprouts up. They're young in their growth. The root system hasn't developed yet, and the plant is not old enough to bear fruit or the flower.
And so, the scripture says not a novice, lest having been puffed up with pride he shall fall into the judgment of the devil, condemnation of the devil. There's nothing that Satan loves more than to see a believer in their weakness fall into sin, right up in front of everybody, because they're a leader in the church. And what Satan does is he brings condemnation down on that person.
Not covetous; Now the normal word for covetousness in the bible, which is not this word, but the normal word PLEONEXIA means to have a desire to want more. You might say more what? Well, that's what covetousness is. It's the whole attitude of I've reached this level of material wealth in life, and the common desire amongst western culture people is to want the next level, the next step, the next thing.
That's covetousness, to want more than what you have, and the desire to have more than what you need. We just keep going and that's covetousness. But that's not this word here. This word is a single Greek word that means a love for silver or love for money. It's the same word used in Chapter 6 where he says the love for money is the root of all evil.
It doesn't say money is evil. It says the love for money. And the word love is PHILEO which means friendship. And unfortunately for many people, money is their best friend. We rearrange our whole schedules around money, what's going to make us the money, and how we're going to spend our money.
So, a person in leadership cannot desire or love money. Which as you know, if you watch TV, or heard enough in church, for people in ministry, that's a difficult thing because usually that's all they talk about.
In Verses 4 and 5 we have the crux of the whole book. It's the pivotal point and the center of the whole book. It says in Verse 4, and this is the 14th characteristic of the person who is the overseer.
1 Timothy 3:3 - Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
The 8th thing is "Not given to wine." Now that kind of sounds like there's a loophole there. Not given to wine. Literally, the Greek text means to not be alongside of wine. What does that mean? It means don't be associated with it. Don't even let it sit on the table next to you, even if it belongs to someone else. Stay away from it. Don't be associated with it.
No striker, and that's the literal translation, somebody who does not use their fists to handle their situations. It is somebody who does not beat up other people.
Then the next thing which is our tenth thing and it's only in the Textus Receptus manuscripts. You won't find it outside of the King James Bible.
Not greedy of filthy lucre; Now before I understood what that meant, just by those words I didn't want anything to do with it. I had no idea what filthy lucre was, but I didn't want to find out. It's literally one Greek word that means do not desire or be greedy of shameful gain. It means that if you're in a position of leadership in the church, that issue of your relationship with the world and your desire for worldly material things, it has to already be settled.
But (meaning in contrast to that), but patient, that is, you wait back. You're not known to be out in the world. You're known to be moderate. You hold back. You don't need to go there. You don't need that!
Then it says not a brawler. That is self-explanatory.
Next: To be of good behavior. Some people would be eliminated there. But good behavior comes from the Greek word KOSMION, like cosmetics, and it means to have an orderly lifestyle disciplined and orderly.
Next: Given to hospitality. This has nothing to do with parties, or the church Christmas party has got to be at his house. It has nothing to do with that. In fact, the word hospitality, it's one Greek word. It's a compound word that means to love or be fond of strangers.
I think I shared this in the past, but it has to do with the believers who come into town on the Lord's business, and they have nowhere to stay. And believers opened their homes to other Christians, people who were strange in that city, and had no place to go or no place to stay. So that's what it's talking about. Be hospitable to other believers that have no place to stay, as they're traveling through your town.
After giving the hospitality, it says apt to teach; And it literally means have the ability to teach. An overseer, and especially a pastor, must be able to teach God's word.
As I mentioned in part 10a, there are 16 qualities that are necessary for a bishop, elder, or pastor.
First of all, it is necessary to be blameless. This word means that he is unable to be impeached. You can accuse him of things, you can spread rumors about him, but there must be at least two or three witnesses to bring a conviction in court. You can't just accuse a leader of something. You have to prove it. And there must be at least two or three witnesses, and this person cannot be eligible to be impeached. If he can be impeached for any of the moral problems or areas that he's presenting here, then he cannot be an overseer. So, he must be blameless, unimpeachable.
Secondly, the husband of one wife, and remember, all of this goes with (to be), to exist as the husband of one wife. How can a woman be an overseer (Bishop, Elder, or Pastor) and be the husband of one wife?
Now the way the Greek text reads, it reads a one-woman man. That's the way it reads. It has nothing to do with marriage, or divorce, or remarriage. It has nothing to do with any of those factors as far as the text is concerned. He must be a one-woman man, faithful, period! We're talking about faithfulness. He must be unimpeachable. He must be a one-woman man.
Next: He must be vigilant. That means attentive, to be watching, because Satan is always on the prowl. So, he's got to be taking inventory of his life and taking care of things as they're happening.
Then it says sober. This has to do with sober mindedness. This has nothing to do with alcohol or that type of sobriety. It means to have a frame of mind that thinks in wisdom and facts according to God.
1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
I would like to spend a little bit of time here because I believe there's some very important teaching here concerning the qualifications of a bishop. And please keep in mind that this word for bishop (EPISKOPOS) is also interchangeable with elder and pastor.
But here is a very important technicality I want to share with you. It says in the text a bishop then must be, and then he starts his list. The word "must" is the word necessary. It is necessary. And then in the Greek text, it says (to be), not just be, but to be. That is what is called a Present Tense Infinitive. It means to presently exist with these qualities. It has nothing to do with the past, and obviously nothing to do with the future. It is right now presently that these are the qualities and the character of this person.
There are a couple of highlights here that people use, but it's not really a text about marriage and divorce, or relationships. This is all about character. This is all about faithfulness. If you are into marking in your bible, you might want to write off to the side 1 Corinthians 4:2. Paul says there is one requirement of those who are stewards, or ministers, and that is faithfulness. That's the only requirement. If you read that into each one of these qualities, you will see that Paul is saying that to be an overseer, a (man) must be faithful in all of these areas. There are 16 of them.
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two things: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach. The term usurp authority over the man, usurp authority is the word authenticate. It means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
In the church, God has raised up the men to do the praying and the doctrinal teaching. We find out in Titus that the women are to take the younger women and teach them how to keep their home and love their husband and raise their children. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, don't take over for him, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence.
1 Timothy 3:1 - This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Paul starts out by saying this is a true saying, and the word true is the word faithful. This is a faithful saying. Paul uses that phrase several times in his letters. The reason he does is because they had no New Testament in those times. Whenever they talked about the scriptures, it was always the Old Testament, or the Tanak, the Hebrew scripture.
Here is something I would like to share before going through this chapter. In Verses 1 through 7, we have the instruction concerning overseers. The King James text uses the word bishop. And the word is EPISKOPOS, where we get our word Episcopalian from. EPI is over, and SKOPOS is to scope (to see). So, he's an EPI-over SKOPOS-seer. He's an overseer.
In Acts Chapter 20, the overseer is also interchangeable with elder and with pastor. The overseer is the head officer in the church. And that's what he is responsible for. He is responsible for the overseeing of the church, to make sure it functions in the order that God has it in.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have beenkeptsecretfrom the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ has secrets .
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which waskeptsecretsince the world began,
Apostle Paul was revealed the mystery of Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was revealed another mystery.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of thismystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Jesus Christ revealed mystery to Apostle Paul in a revelation.
Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me themystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Apostle Paul know the mystery of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in themysteryof Christ)
Apostle Paul was given the gospel of grace in a mystery.
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was given another mystery in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of thismysteryamong the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Apostle Paul writes about the gathering in the clouds with Jesus Christ and the saved dead saints will rise first in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the deadinChristshall rise first:
Always give thanks in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:18
Inevery thing give thanks: for this is the will of GodinChristJesus concerning you.
Apostle Paul is a preacher, a teacher and a Apostle in Christ.
1 Timothy 2:7
Where unto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truthinChrist, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentilesinfaith and verity.
Deacons are in Christ.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldnessinthe faith which isinChristJesus.
No body knew before the world began, that Apostle Paul was going to be given a revelation in Christ about the gospel of grace .
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given usinChristJesus before the world began,
Hi Giannis, I truly appreciate your time and understanding. The words that come up in 1 Timothy 3:1-3 is " sober and not giving of wine ". My understanding of a Bishop or a Pastor, it's best if they don't drink wine that can get them drunk, grapejuice will be better.
1 Timothy 3:1-3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
Now the wine that Jesus Christ made was not wine that made a person drunk. God speak of being drunk is a sin. Good wine was grapejuice from Heaven.
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forthgoodwine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept thegoodwineuntil now.
In my life time, I will never believe that strong drinks bring in goods things in life. Giannis in no disrespect to wine, I believe that anyone can drink it, but for a Pastor of a church, it's dangerous. I should of be dead at the age 6, my father was a drunk and nearly killed me, by the grace of God, I am alive . I don't hate the alcohol, it's the sin that comes after it. Believe me or not, I still respected my father until he died from illness of alcohol.
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Giannis, thank you and God bless you with the power of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Can a Pastor drink wine or alcohol ? Apostle Paul saids no. A Pastor should never drink alcohol or do drugs . Can a deacon drink wine or alcohol ? Yes , but a little and not to get drunk . Apostle Paul has the rules for Pastors and Deacons in how to run a church and how to live at home.
1 Timothy 3:1-8
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Apostle Paul is giving Timothy instructions for men to become pastors in the church. Apostle Paul never mentioned a woman to becoming a pastor. Bishop means pastor.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
When it comes to becoming a Bishop in the body of the church, it best to have a wive and husband with kids.
Ephesians 5:22-25
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The husband needs to love the wife, like Christ loves the body of the church.
Apostle Paul is my Apostle, my Preacher and my Teacher in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles infaithand verity.
Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you.
The reason some don't believe the trinity is because they don't believe the scriptures and they don't believe Jesus Christ is God.
When you read this verse, Jesus Christ is the Word. The three are one and that means trinity.
1 John 5:7
For there arethreethat bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thesethreeare one.
Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word is God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was theWord, and theWordwas with God, and theWordwas God.
Jesus Christ the Word became flesh on earth.
John 1:14
And theWordwas made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Remember that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Matthew 24:35
Heavenandearthshall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 28:18
AndJesus cameandspake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me inheavenandinearth.
Jesus Christ said that He is God.
Matthew 22:32
IamtheGod of Abraham, andtheGod ofIsaac, andtheGod of Jacob? Godis nottheGod ofthedead, but oftheliving.
Jesus Christ said that the Father in Heaven is one with Him in the Trinity.
John 10:30
IandmyFatherareone.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus Christ is the Godhead.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 God died for us on the cross.
Hello Timmywynne. There are many Scriptures that point to the Triune Nature of God, and specifically, that Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit are revealed to us from the very Being of God the Father. When we think of the Trinity, we know we won't find that word in the Bible, as it is purely a descriptive word of what the Bible declares to be the fullness of God's Being. So to the verses you seek, and you will need to read them fully in your Bible.
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
Hi Bennymkje, thanks for all you're work. If I may add some mystery to the study.
The mystery in God was given to Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul calls his gospel " mine ".
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Apostle Paul was the first to know that the resurrection of Christ Jesus saves just by believing and that is his gospel . 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was the first to know Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was the first to know the Rapture. It's coming soon .
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you amystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
I think it best to take interest in Apostle Paul's mystery the Jesus Christ our God gave him.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may the mystery gospel save you
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2John 5:28-29Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9Acts 24:16Romans 9:12 Corinthians 1:121 Timothy 3:9Hebrews 13:18.
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
Hello Momsage. If I might throw in my understanding to your first question to Richard (i.e."Do you believe God chooses some souls before they are born to be the elect destined for heaven and those who are not the elect destined for Hell?"). I believe that Romans 8:29,30 answers this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
Thank you, brother, I know we have discussed it before and I think we both respect and care for each other as brothers. I will try not to rehash that discussion forgive me if there is some overlap, but could Christ have sinned your answer is no, I will just use this verse James 1:13, your answer, according to this verse He could not even have been tempted but Jesus was tempted or tested and Jesus stayed obedient to the Father. Temptation or testing is for an answer to whether someone will be obedient or disobedient, Romans 5:19.
1 Timothy 3:16 the word manifest is the Greek word phanero meaning to make visible, make clear. Jesus did that. In the flesh, I ask when did this happen? Did this happen when Mary conceived or when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and became the Messiah/Christ?
Hebrews 1:1-3 God spoke to us by His Son every word Jesus said was the word of God, not His. Jesus shunned Philip when he asked Jesus to show them the Father, John 14:9-10, every word Jesus said was the Father.
As I have said when God placed Adam in the garden he did not have a sinful nature but he sinned and was disobedient. Jesus was not conceived by man but by the Holy Ghost, Jesus did not have the sinful nature past down by the first Adam, but He was obedient and did not sin.
I did not say anything about the cross but after Jesus prayed in the garden asking the Father if there was any other way Jesus was obedient to the end, being beaten, nailed to the cross, and giving His life for us.
If the first Adam was created with a sinful nature could God say He saw everything He had made, and it was very good? This sinful nature has a sentence of death, and it was after Adam ate the fruit that it was applied, and it spread to all. Adam was the figure of him that was to come, Jesus, the last Adam who by His obedience we have hope. How can one be obedient if they cannot be disobedient? To say Jesus was sinless and obedient becomes a farce.
Given the passage in 1 Timothy 3:12 ("Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well"), I understand that the Apostle Paul's instruction to Timothy on this matter was strongly influenced by the marriage/relationship culture of the day. And that was one of polygamous liberties prevalent at that time. So the apostle's clear instruction was that a deacon, as also with the 'bishop/elder/presbyter' (v2), was not to be appointed to this worthy and responsible position in Christ's Church if he was married to more than one wife at the one time.
But what if that man was not in a polygamous relationship but was divorced because of his wife's adultery and has since remarried? If we consider the Lord's Word on this matter, we can believe that a spouse was free to remarry if the divorce was necessitated because of fornication/adultery by the other spouse ( Matthew 19:7-9). Whereas the Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7:10,11, indicates that if one separates/divorces from the other, then then they should remain single. But Paul doesn't specifically refer to fornication/adultery as being the cause for the separation; physical or mental abuse could also be a cause.
So, if we consider both these passages in relation to the example you gave, although there appears to be permission for a remarriage when unfaithfulness has occurred by the wife, would this be the right example and clear testimony before the Church, for a person's appointment to the diaconate? What would happen if this second marriage fails for a similar reason, is the deacon's position still tenable? I'm sure, various Church administrations would have their own understanding and applications on this difficult matter, but I would be very careful.
Christ is omnipresent and not bound by the limits of time or space. When Jesus promised in Matthew 28:20, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world," He declared His constant presence with every believer, no matter where they are. David proclaimed in Psalm 139:7-10, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." This eternal reality points us to Christ as God in the flesh ( 1 Timothy 3:16), unlimited in His power and presence.
When Jesus walked the earth, His physical body was localized, but after His resurrection and glorification, He transcended all limitations. In John 14:18, He promised, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." This is fulfilled through His Spirit indwelling each believer ( Colossians 1:27, Romans 8:9-10). At the same time, He intercedes at the right hand of God ( Hebrews 7:25), proving He can be present in heaven and in the hearts of His people simultaneously.
Christ Himself said in Matthew 18:20, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Paul declared in Galatians 2:20, "Christ liveth in me." Yet John also saw Him walking among the seven churches ( Revelation 1:13). These passages show that Christ is not confined but active everywhere at once.
This truth is a source of comfort: He hears the cry of the saint in a prison cell, strengthens the missionary across the seas, and walks beside you today. Truly, He is Emmanuel, "God with us" ( Matthew 1:23), never distant, never absent, always present to guide, comfort, and uphold His people.
G&P
a very clear picture can be drawn out of those scriptures!
God said he will not give his glory to another here in Isaiah 42:8
"I am the lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
However Immanuel! came out of the bosom of the Father and was manifested in the flesh!!
Matthew 1:23.
John 1:18.
1 Timothy 3:16.
He shared that Glory!
John 17:5 "and now, o father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Undeniably God!!
Blessings!
If your "battle" is with believing that Jesus is God, may I suggest the following scriptures for your consideration:
Genesis 1:1 along with John 1:1-3, Revelation 19:13, Colossians 1:15-17, Matthew 1:23, John 10:30, John 14:9, Mark 2:5-7, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, Philippians 2:5-7, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:8, John 5:18, 1 John 5:20, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, Acts 10:25-26, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 22:13, Micah 5:2, John 17:5, John 1:14. There are more, but these should suffice.
You mention that "Christians say that there is no separation between Christ and God," and that the bible shows otherwise. Jesus said I and my Father are one, and He also said that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. This may not mean anything to you, but in the book of Hebrews, Jesus is described as the APOUGASMA (the out beam) of God's glory, God projecting Himself through the time/space factor in the person of Christ. Jesus Christ, being God, was never separated from the source. This is why Jesus can say if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.
The best example I can give would be taking a flashlight in a dark room and shining it on a wall. The flashlight is the source, and the light is projected on the wall from the source. There is no separation unless the flashlight is turned off. Now, imagine the flashlight being God, and the light shining on the wall is Jesus, again, no separation. Jesus is said to be the true light which came down from heaven, the APOUGASMA of God.
If you are sincerely struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ (Him being God), I hope these scriptures I've provided might help. Also, if you would like, I can share my personal understanding on Matthew 26:39 and Luke 22:42 and why Christ would ask this.
If I may ask, are you a Christian? If so, who do you say Jesus is?
Please know that I was not accusing you of being a Jehovah's Witness. I already knew you did not belong to any specific group as you have mentioned this in the past. Brother, if I rather you not post, I would have told you so. Please continue to post. As I have mentioned to you before, I always enjoy our conversations. They are always kind and respectful.
I do agree with you 100% that "preconceived biases can blind us." Amen to that!
As far as truth goes, I like to think that you have truth, I have truth, and every true believer has truth. You see, to me truth is not what you and I believe or say, and not what anyone else believes or says. To me truth is a person, and that person is Jesus Christ. If you and I have Christ, we have the truth!
You and I have been here in this forum for several years (10 plus for me) and we've had several good discussions and Lord willing, I hope to have many more. Over the years, I have never told anyone that they are wrong. I may disagree with someone, but that doesn't mean they are wrong, it just means I disagree.
As to your question, I would answer by saying that Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh. God came in human form, nothing less. He was 100% God and 100% man. 1 Timothy 3:16 reads, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
We both agree that God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus says in John 2:19, "Destroy this temple (speaking of His body), and in three days I will raise it up," Jesus says "I" will raise it up. How could this be unless Jesus is God? Just something to think about.
Ronald, please do not think that I don't value the things you have to share or that I want you to stop posting. That bothers me brother that you might think this. We are here to lift each other up!
God Bless!!!
I did read your earlier post but not before you posted the second time. I'm not sure what you mean by a "Wonderful time" lady, but I can share my thoughts on this.
A man, whether he is a pastor or not is free to re-marry if his current spouse dies. You asked about this pastor justifying getting remarried to a "wonderful time" lady by using Titus 1:6. I would say that Titus 1:6 has nothing to do with his situation. What bothers me about this is that this pastor is having a wonderful time with another woman while his wife is still alive. It should not matter that his current wife is critically ill. He is still required to be faithful to his wife. No man, especially a pastor should become involved with another woman while he is still married. Even though there may not be anything sexual or romantic going on, there is still the appearance of evil which every believer is to avoid.
We see this same phrase "husband of one wife" in 1 Timothy 3:2. As I share before when I went through 1 Timothy, it is literally a one-woman man. That's the way it reads in the Greek text. It doesn't have anything to do with marriage, divorce, or re-marriage. It means to be a one-woman man, faithful to one wife.
I hope this helps. Thank you so much for your message.
God Bless!!!
1 Timothy 3:10 - And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
And let these also first be proved, or tested; then let them serve in the office of deacon, after they are found to be blameless. Again, unimpeachable.
1 Timothy 3:11 - Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
It says wives, or women likewise, again working off the verb (to be) in Verse 2. Now there are four things:
The wives must be grave, that is, serious in their approach to the things and handling of the things of God. Secondly, not slanderers. Thirdly, vigilant, or sober in their thinking, watchfulness, attentiveness. And lastly, faithful to Christ in all things.
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Now the Spirit speaks clearly. There wasn't any doubt about what God's Spirit was saying in these days about the warning in the church. Notice that it says that in the latter times. Literally, in later times. And notice that times is plural. What he's saying is that beginning at his era, his time, and this will progressively go for several epics, or eras. And as time in history goes on, apostasy from the faith is going to grow worse.
Depart is the word APOSTASIA. It's the Greek word for apostasy. Apostasy means moving away from a fixed position. They had a fixed position in Christ doctrinally, but they have been moved. The term falling away is APOSTASIA.
Theologians have labeled latter times from the ascension of Christ, to His second coming. Those are all the latter days. He is indicating for us that things are going to get worse as far as getting away from the faith. Please notice it doesn't say church. It says the faith. All true doctrine will encourage and teach people to put their trust in Christ for everything.
1 Timothy 3:8 - Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
It says likewise, and the word must is in italics because this word likewise is still forming off of the word (to be), back in Verse 2. It is necessary for bishop or overseer to be presently in a certain condition, having 16 characteristics of maturity in the things of the Lord. So likewise, also, deacons are to be. It's working off of the same verb.
As we see in Verse 8, likewise it is necessary for deacons to be grave. It literally means to be serious about the work of the Lord. Take it seriously! Secondly, not doubletongued. We call it two-faced, not saying one thing to one person and one thing to another. We are not a salesman who compromises trying to make everybody happy.
Thirdly, not given to much wine. That sounds like a loophole. Later on, Paul is going to tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs' sake. In those days, the water was not good to drink, and so they would mix the water with wine. According to some accounts, it was nine parts water with one part wine. It was not the same alcohol content that we have today.
There is a lot of controversy about whether it's right for Christians to drink alcoholic. But back then, if you would drink the wine fresh off the vine, it was used for medicinal purposes for a settling of the stomach, because the water was so bad. So, when Paul says the deacons are not to be given to much wine, he's not saying they cannot have any at all because they might need some wine for their stomachs' sake. But just so you know, it was nothing like the wine we have today.
Fourthly, not greedy of filthy lucre; this literally means not being greedy for shameful gain. It's a shame for a leader in the church, let alone a Christian, but more so a leader to be striving for and coveting and making the goal of their life materialism and money. It's called shameful gain.
1 Timothy 3:7 - Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Lastly, it says, "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without;" That is, those outside of the church, the non-believers. Now they might not like him. They might say "I don't believe in his doctrine. I don't like him because he's a Christian." But that has nothing to do with it. What is his reputation with the people outside of the church? So, he has to have a reputation in and out!
But is says that he must have a good report, or good testimony, of those which are without, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. A trap! The devil can trap him by saying "Well, you know 5 years ago, when you punched that guy out" nobody knows about it, but then after you're in position of leadership, then Satan loves to bring things up and trap people with bad reports.
1 Timothy 3:4 - One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
He has to be somebody who rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Gravity doesn't mean the law of gravity. But basically, here's a person who is ruling his own house well, and has his children in subjection. There's a difference between subjection and submission. Submission is something that you're asked to do voluntarily. Subjection means you're told to do it. So, the ruler of the household basically has to have his children in subjection to him. With all respect. That's what gravity means. It stands for the Greek word that has to do with respect and reverence.
The 15th characteristic is in Verse 6.
1 Timothy 3:6 - Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
He says not a novice. Most people interpret novice as a new believer, you can't be young in the Lord, you can't be new, somebody that has to have the things of the Lord worked out in him. But the word for novice has to do with agriculture. It has to do with a sprout that is growing out of the ground. It's the condition of early seedlings popping the sprouts up. They're young in their growth. The root system hasn't developed yet, and the plant is not old enough to bear fruit or the flower.
And so, the scripture says not a novice, lest having been puffed up with pride he shall fall into the judgment of the devil, condemnation of the devil. There's nothing that Satan loves more than to see a believer in their weakness fall into sin, right up in front of everybody, because they're a leader in the church. And what Satan does is he brings condemnation down on that person.
1 Timothy 3:3 continued:
Not covetous; Now the normal word for covetousness in the bible, which is not this word, but the normal word PLEONEXIA means to have a desire to want more. You might say more what? Well, that's what covetousness is. It's the whole attitude of I've reached this level of material wealth in life, and the common desire amongst western culture people is to want the next level, the next step, the next thing.
That's covetousness, to want more than what you have, and the desire to have more than what you need. We just keep going and that's covetousness. But that's not this word here. This word is a single Greek word that means a love for silver or love for money. It's the same word used in Chapter 6 where he says the love for money is the root of all evil.
It doesn't say money is evil. It says the love for money. And the word love is PHILEO which means friendship. And unfortunately for many people, money is their best friend. We rearrange our whole schedules around money, what's going to make us the money, and how we're going to spend our money.
So, a person in leadership cannot desire or love money. Which as you know, if you watch TV, or heard enough in church, for people in ministry, that's a difficult thing because usually that's all they talk about.
In Verses 4 and 5 we have the crux of the whole book. It's the pivotal point and the center of the whole book. It says in Verse 4, and this is the 14th characteristic of the person who is the overseer.
1 Timothy 3:3 - Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
The 8th thing is "Not given to wine." Now that kind of sounds like there's a loophole there. Not given to wine. Literally, the Greek text means to not be alongside of wine. What does that mean? It means don't be associated with it. Don't even let it sit on the table next to you, even if it belongs to someone else. Stay away from it. Don't be associated with it.
No striker, and that's the literal translation, somebody who does not use their fists to handle their situations. It is somebody who does not beat up other people.
Then the next thing which is our tenth thing and it's only in the Textus Receptus manuscripts. You won't find it outside of the King James Bible.
Not greedy of filthy lucre; Now before I understood what that meant, just by those words I didn't want anything to do with it. I had no idea what filthy lucre was, but I didn't want to find out. It's literally one Greek word that means do not desire or be greedy of shameful gain. It means that if you're in a position of leadership in the church, that issue of your relationship with the world and your desire for worldly material things, it has to already be settled.
But (meaning in contrast to that), but patient, that is, you wait back. You're not known to be out in the world. You're known to be moderate. You hold back. You don't need to go there. You don't need that!
Then it says not a brawler. That is self-explanatory.
1 Timothy 3:2 continued:
Next: To be of good behavior. Some people would be eliminated there. But good behavior comes from the Greek word KOSMION, like cosmetics, and it means to have an orderly lifestyle disciplined and orderly.
Next: Given to hospitality. This has nothing to do with parties, or the church Christmas party has got to be at his house. It has nothing to do with that. In fact, the word hospitality, it's one Greek word. It's a compound word that means to love or be fond of strangers.
I think I shared this in the past, but it has to do with the believers who come into town on the Lord's business, and they have nowhere to stay. And believers opened their homes to other Christians, people who were strange in that city, and had no place to go or no place to stay. So that's what it's talking about. Be hospitable to other believers that have no place to stay, as they're traveling through your town.
After giving the hospitality, it says apt to teach; And it literally means have the ability to teach. An overseer, and especially a pastor, must be able to teach God's word.
1 Timothy 3:2 continued:
As I mentioned in part 10a, there are 16 qualities that are necessary for a bishop, elder, or pastor.
First of all, it is necessary to be blameless. This word means that he is unable to be impeached. You can accuse him of things, you can spread rumors about him, but there must be at least two or three witnesses to bring a conviction in court. You can't just accuse a leader of something. You have to prove it. And there must be at least two or three witnesses, and this person cannot be eligible to be impeached. If he can be impeached for any of the moral problems or areas that he's presenting here, then he cannot be an overseer. So, he must be blameless, unimpeachable.
Secondly, the husband of one wife, and remember, all of this goes with (to be), to exist as the husband of one wife. How can a woman be an overseer (Bishop, Elder, or Pastor) and be the husband of one wife?
Now the way the Greek text reads, it reads a one-woman man. That's the way it reads. It has nothing to do with marriage, or divorce, or remarriage. It has nothing to do with any of those factors as far as the text is concerned. He must be a one-woman man, faithful, period! We're talking about faithfulness. He must be unimpeachable. He must be a one-woman man.
Next: He must be vigilant. That means attentive, to be watching, because Satan is always on the prowl. So, he's got to be taking inventory of his life and taking care of things as they're happening.
Then it says sober. This has to do with sober mindedness. This has nothing to do with alcohol or that type of sobriety. It means to have a frame of mind that thinks in wisdom and facts according to God.
1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
I would like to spend a little bit of time here because I believe there's some very important teaching here concerning the qualifications of a bishop. And please keep in mind that this word for bishop (EPISKOPOS) is also interchangeable with elder and pastor.
But here is a very important technicality I want to share with you. It says in the text a bishop then must be, and then he starts his list. The word "must" is the word necessary. It is necessary. And then in the Greek text, it says (to be), not just be, but to be. That is what is called a Present Tense Infinitive. It means to presently exist with these qualities. It has nothing to do with the past, and obviously nothing to do with the future. It is right now presently that these are the qualities and the character of this person.
There are a couple of highlights here that people use, but it's not really a text about marriage and divorce, or relationships. This is all about character. This is all about faithfulness. If you are into marking in your bible, you might want to write off to the side 1 Corinthians 4:2. Paul says there is one requirement of those who are stewards, or ministers, and that is faithfulness. That's the only requirement. If you read that into each one of these qualities, you will see that Paul is saying that to be an overseer, a (man) must be faithful in all of these areas. There are 16 of them.
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Two things: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach. The term usurp authority over the man, usurp authority is the word authenticate. It means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.
In the church, God has raised up the men to do the praying and the doctrinal teaching. We find out in Titus that the women are to take the younger women and teach them how to keep their home and love their husband and raise their children. A woman is not to teach, nor to take the authenticity of man, don't take over for him, but to be in silence. That's just what he said. They are to learn in silence.
1 Timothy 3:1 - This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Paul starts out by saying this is a true saying, and the word true is the word faithful. This is a faithful saying. Paul uses that phrase several times in his letters. The reason he does is because they had no New Testament in those times. Whenever they talked about the scriptures, it was always the Old Testament, or the Tanak, the Hebrew scripture.
Here is something I would like to share before going through this chapter. In Verses 1 through 7, we have the instruction concerning overseers. The King James text uses the word bishop. And the word is EPISKOPOS, where we get our word Episcopalian from. EPI is over, and SKOPOS is to scope (to see). So, he's an EPI-over SKOPOS-seer. He's an overseer.
In Acts Chapter 20, the overseer is also interchangeable with elder and with pastor. The overseer is the head officer in the church. And that's what he is responsible for. He is responsible for the overseeing of the church, to make sure it functions in the order that God has it in.
Jesus Christ kept the resurrection a secret.
Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have beenkeptsecretfrom the foundation of the world.
Jesus Christ has secrets .
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which waskeptsecretsince the world began,
Apostle Paul was revealed the mystery of Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was revealed another mystery.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of thismystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Jesus Christ revealed mystery to Apostle Paul in a revelation.
Ephesians 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me themystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Apostle Paul know the mystery of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in themysteryof Christ)
Apostle Paul was given the gospel of grace in a mystery.
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was given another mystery in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of thismysteryamong the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Apostle Paul writes about the gathering in the clouds with Jesus Christ and the saved dead saints will rise first in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the deadinChristshall rise first:
Always give thanks in Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:18
Inevery thing give thanks: for this is the will of GodinChristJesus concerning you.
Apostle Paul is a preacher, a teacher and a Apostle in Christ.
1 Timothy 2:7
Where unto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truthinChrist, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentilesinfaith and verity.
Deacons are in Christ.
1 Timothy 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldnessinthe faith which isinChristJesus.
No body knew before the world began, that Apostle Paul was going to be given a revelation in Christ about the gospel of grace .
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given usinChristJesus before the world began,
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Timothy 3:1-3
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
Now the wine that Jesus Christ made was not wine that made a person drunk. God speak of being drunk is a sin. Good wine was grapejuice from Heaven.
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forthgoodwine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept thegoodwineuntil now.
In my life time, I will never believe that strong drinks bring in goods things in life. Giannis in no disrespect to wine, I believe that anyone can drink it, but for a Pastor of a church, it's dangerous. I should of be dead at the age 6, my father was a drunk and nearly killed me, by the grace of God, I am alive . I don't hate the alcohol, it's the sin that comes after it. Believe me or not, I still respected my father until he died from illness of alcohol.
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Giannis, thank you and God bless you with the power of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
May we all believe the Resurrection.
1 Timothy 3:1-8
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
May the gospel of grace change your life
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
When it comes to becoming a Bishop in the body of the church, it best to have a wive and husband with kids.
Ephesians 5:22-25
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The husband needs to love the wife, like Christ loves the body of the church.
Apostle Paul is my Apostle, my Preacher and my Teacher in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles infaithand verity.
Please read Romans through Philemon for doctrine and pray continually everyday for God to speak to you.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Let the gospel of grace change your life.
When you read this verse, Jesus Christ is the Word. The three are one and that means trinity.
1 John 5:7
For there arethreethat bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and thesethreeare one.
Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word is God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was theWord, and theWordwas with God, and theWordwas God.
Jesus Christ the Word became flesh on earth.
John 1:14
And theWordwas made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Remember that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
Matthew 24:35
Heavenandearthshall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 28:18
AndJesus cameandspake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me inheavenandinearth.
Jesus Christ said that He is God.
Matthew 22:32
IamtheGod of Abraham, andtheGod ofIsaac, andtheGod of Jacob? Godis nottheGod ofthedead, but oftheliving.
Jesus Christ said that the Father in Heaven is one with Him in the Trinity.
John 10:30
IandmyFatherareone.
Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Jesus Christ is the Godhead.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 God died for us on the cross.
Of Jesus Christ: Isaiah 9:6,7 (an Old Testament Prophecy); Micah 5:2 & John 1:1-14 (from everlasting); Matthew 1:22,23; Mark 2:5-7; John 8:56-58; John 16: 27,28; John 17:4,5; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-7; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 3:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:8-10; 1 John 5:7; 1 John 5:20.
Of the Holy Spirit: Matthew 12:31; Luke 1:34,35; Luke 11:13; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7-11; Acts 5:3; Acts 8:29; Acts 13:4; Romans 8:14; Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 2:10-14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:30; Hebrews 10:29; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 5:6.
The above are a few Scriptures that point to the deity of Jesus Christ & God's Spirit: all showing that they don't work independently from God, but have been sent out from God, from God's Being, to accomplish His Purposes in the world. And we know that Jesus, as the Word of God clothed with humanity, is the very expression of God to the world ( John 14:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 4:2). Hope these will help you in your study of this very important doctrine. Blessings.
The mystery in God was given to Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul calls his gospel " mine ".
Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of themystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Apostle Paul was the first to know that the resurrection of Christ Jesus saves just by believing and that is his gospel . 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known themysteryof the gospel,
Apostle Paul was the first to know Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and was resurrected from the dead.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themysteryof godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Apostle Paul was the first to know the Rapture. It's coming soon .
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you amystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
I think it best to take interest in Apostle Paul's mystery the Jesus Christ our God gave him.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may the mystery gospel save you
I am sure we all have thought about that, but it is hard to answer. We have a loving and just God wanting all to come to Him and be saved because He gave His only Son for the redemption of sins. Some may say no since the only way to the Father is through the Son but what about those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus?
All of us have a conscience and the knowledge of good and evil, some get to a point of no return and God gives them over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1:28. Some go so far into evil that their conscience is seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:2, they do not know good from evil. I do not know if you have ever met someone like that, but you can see cold darkness in their eyes.
If we read Romans 1-16 it is not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law for they, have it written in their heart and their conscience bears witness. Our conscience records all we have ever done or thought. I believe this is about those who have heard the gospel and those who did not have a chance to hear it.
Many take the great white throne judgment as for the lost only, but I believe this is for those who are not in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. My understanding is the great white throne judgment goes with Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.
As it says in Revelation 20:15 all that was not found in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. So, to me, this is all the rest of the dead Revelation 20:5 if some were not found, some are found in the Book of Life. Some who lived before Jesus first came and some after Jesus came who never heard the gospel, their conscience bearing witness, will be found in the Book of Life. As we see in John 8:9 Acts 24:16 Romans 9:1 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 3:9 Hebrews 13:18.
This is my understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Yes Jaz, I did use the word 'clarify', but was looking for your 'clarification' concerning those two statements: i.e. to which one you believed was true and not necessarily for a detailed explanation. Nevertheless, that's not important now, particularly after reading your discussions with GiGi, where you clearly stated that you did not need to further explain yourself, especially to her important questions, which would have helped us know where you stand on this matter.
Ordinarily, if someone told me (as you wrote earlier), "Christ is God manifest in the flesh", I would find complete agreement with that statement, for the Scripture says so ( 1 Timothy 3:16). Yet, in my limited exposure to varying views of people on certain Scriptures, I've found that one can believe that Christ is God manifest in the flesh (as God entering Earth's realm in Christ His Son), yet actually mean that 'after Christ was born into the world, God then entered Him (whether at birth, baptism, or whenever), and so God manifested Himself in Jesus His Son only then. I think you can see the difference between the two, so I (we) were wanting to clarify which belief you held. But I won't press you any longer with that, as you've made it clear that you won't do so.
If I might address your two other points here: "he was different from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world in that respect". I detected you might have been referring to two lambs (an animal & that spoken of Christ). But the Scripture you quoted ( Revelation 13:8) only refers to Christ. Maybe you meant that an animal would not submit to God's Will (i.e. it would put up a struggle to be free), whereas Christ did not struggle and fully submitted to His Father. Yet, the Scripture only speaks of Christ so an animal could never apply in that verse.
Thanks for responding.
Part 1.
Your quote in response to me as follows;
"God is a Spirit , the "Me" is the Spirit of God , God's Holy Spirit , which Christ , the chosen vessel , was filled with without measure.
End quote.
Yes, God is a Spirit and yes Christ was filled with without measure.
The "Me" we are referring to in Malachi 3:1 is interacting and answering a specific question in the previous verse.
Malachi 2:17.
"Where is the "ELOHIM" of judgment?
That question is answered in the next verse, Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I WILL SEND MY MESSENGER, AND HE SHALL PREPARE THE WAY BEFORE "ME": and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to "HIS" temple,
So yes, you have the triune God represented in the usage of the name Elohim here.
And Jesus represented the fulfillment of this in his 1st coming and will again "with completion in his 2nd coming.
As for God being a spirit, that doesn't limit God! He can do "Anything." The scripture says that and I can believe that without comprehending it. He can certainly manifest himself in the flesh as scripture says " 1 Timothy 3:16. God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
With God's ability to do anything and be anything.
If we take what the scripture plainly and literally says,
I wouldn't dare question it concerning this.
And I certainly wouldn't rob Christ of his Glory and apply it to Angels in the usage of the name Elohim.
See part 2 Jaz.
Dear Momsage. Thank you for your kind sentiments expressed here. I know that you, and so many others here, love the Lord with all their hearts & your desire is to bring forward your understanding from the Bible, and where there is a difference of opinion, then a good, hearty & loving discussion can ensue. I don't believe that a topic being discussed at great length as 'being run into the ground', since a discussion is as good as those who are prepared to engage in it & want to keep it going. If exchanges cease, then the topic ends, and as often is the case, without agreement, whether in full or part.
Concerning the inspiration of the KJB translation, I believe that brother Jesse has explained it very well, in that inspiration came in the original writings, when holy men of God & prophets had direct interactions with the LORD, or as in the case of Genesis, where Moses was so directed to pen those words or to access other writings from those preceding him, giving us the history. What we have now in our modern translations (including the KJB), is wholly dependent on the texts that they have derived from & the quality of the translators. Does this mean that those translators of the NIV, NASB, etc. were not inspired or diligent in their work? Or rather, their source material, though older, may not necessarily be the more reliable (for they even differ between each other, depending on which one is used or used in combination with the others).
Just as an example concerning the translators themselves: take 1 Timothy 3:1 or Titus 1:7, focussing on the word 'bishop'. Today, we envision a bishop as a senior member of a clergy, maybe in charge of a diocese & one who confers 'holy' orders to his parishes. As well, he robes himself in a long embroidered gown with a mitre on his head. Do you feel that Paul when writing those words in his letters pictured such an official person in the Church, so admirably dressed to lead Christ's Church? Onto Page 2.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
To loosely transliterate/expand: God KNOWS all things beforehand, including those who would come to Him in faith through His Son (heaven bound) & those who would refuse Him (hell bound).
In His Foreknowledge, he predestined those (in verse 30) to increasingly bear the Image of His Son, thereby Jesus being truly the firstborn of God's children (firstborn, both as a forerunner & Chief Cornerstone of His Church ( Hebrews 12:23; Ephesians 2:20), as well as being the firstborn where both Deity & Humanity coexist together ( 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 3:16).
In fulfilment of His Predestination Plan to one day have those of His creation to bear His Son's Image & be filled with His Spirit, God, IN HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE, called (those He chose) to hear & receive the Gospel message. And these very ones who received the Word with all readiness of mind ( Acts 17:11) & joy, God justified ('declared as righteous', having our slates cleaned, as it were). And to those He justified, he glorified (Gk. edoxasen: 'God brings Christians to a heavenly dignity and condition').
Since, we as believers evangelising with the Gospel, have no idea of those who will be saved & those who will not (known to God alone), the Gospel seeds are scattered/sown that all might hear, particularly those to whom the Spirit leads us to. Sadly, most will refuse, but we can rest assured that all known of God will be saved - none lost.
Thank you, brother, I know we have discussed it before and I think we both respect and care for each other as brothers. I will try not to rehash that discussion forgive me if there is some overlap, but could Christ have sinned your answer is no, I will just use this verse James 1:13, your answer, according to this verse He could not even have been tempted but Jesus was tempted or tested and Jesus stayed obedient to the Father. Temptation or testing is for an answer to whether someone will be obedient or disobedient, Romans 5:19.
1 Timothy 3:16 the word manifest is the Greek word phanero meaning to make visible, make clear. Jesus did that. In the flesh, I ask when did this happen? Did this happen when Mary conceived or when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and became the Messiah/Christ?
Hebrews 1:1-3 God spoke to us by His Son every word Jesus said was the word of God, not His. Jesus shunned Philip when he asked Jesus to show them the Father, John 14:9-10, every word Jesus said was the Father.
As I have said when God placed Adam in the garden he did not have a sinful nature but he sinned and was disobedient. Jesus was not conceived by man but by the Holy Ghost, Jesus did not have the sinful nature past down by the first Adam, but He was obedient and did not sin.
I did not say anything about the cross but after Jesus prayed in the garden asking the Father if there was any other way Jesus was obedient to the end, being beaten, nailed to the cross, and giving His life for us.
If the first Adam was created with a sinful nature could God say He saw everything He had made, and it was very good? This sinful nature has a sentence of death, and it was after Adam ate the fruit that it was applied, and it spread to all. Adam was the figure of him that was to come, Jesus, the last Adam who by His obedience we have hope. How can one be obedient if they cannot be disobedient? To say Jesus was sinless and obedient becomes a farce.
God bless,
RLW