"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." John 12:25
The above means that if Jesus had not died on the cross, He alone would had remained, without saving anyone to Himself.
Jesus went all the way to the end, without abandoning us. Had He given up during the crucifixion, we would had been lost forever. So He patiently endured the pain. He patiently suffered the nails in His body. Because He had a vision in His mind. He saw the future. He saw us all in His Kingdom, happy with Him forever.
I once wondered. What was in Jesus' mind during the crucifixion? What could He have been thinking? Was He thinking of His palaces in Heaven that He left behind? Maybe the other two persons of the Godhead? Maybe His life there before He became one of us? Maybe His angels? Maybe the pain? No, nothing like that. He was thinking of me and you and you... all of us. He gave Himself courage, as if He were saying to Himself, "Endure my soul a little longer, for John, endure my soul a little longer for Mary, endure my soul a little longer for David, endure a liitle bit for.." In His mind were all of the faces of ours. And He did not want to lose a single one of us. So He endured to the end.
Similarly, are we willing to endure the pain, the nails, the cross to save others? It is not easy. We have to accept ridicule, insults, bullying and so many other things from people of the world who will sometimes try to make our lives a nightmare. But are we willing to suffer to the end? Some of them will never believe, but some will be influenced and attracted to Jesus after seeing our holy behavior.
So? Will you endure the nails to save your wife, your husband, your relative, your friend, your neighbor, your collegue? God will give the grace to bear. But the decision is yours. If you decide not crucify yourself you will be left on your own, just you, noone else.
Brother Jesse has provided Scriptures to consider on this matter. I could offer Scriptures that would debate these points, but that would not answer your questions. This doctrine originated in 325 A.D. and was expanded over the next 150 years or so. You need to pray and study for your own conscience.
The majority support this doctrine, and some believe it is essential to be a Christian. Jesus is our Lord, and He gave His life to pay the penalty for sin so that we, through Him, can be reconciled to God. The wages of sin are death, Romans 6:23. Jesus' death on the cross paid this price.
Jesus had His own will, but was obedient and did the will of the Father, John 14:31, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, John 17:16, John 12:49.
The Chalcedonian Creed A.D. 451 states, "Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, in confusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of nature's being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved." Does Scripture support this?
God alone possesses immortality, 1 Timothy 6:16. Our faith rests on the death and resurrection of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:12-17. God cannot die. Jesus was tempted in the same ways we are, Hebrews 4:14-16. God cannot be tempted, James 1:13.
The Bible will answer all questions we have if we are ready to receive the answer, Matthew 7:7, James 1:5, with prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit-not man.
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: ( Amos 8:11).
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ( John 12:32).
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. ( Luke 4:20).
I write this post basically as an indebtment to myself as to failings in fulfilling the Great Commission. The enemy would like to have us all rendered useless; sitting in the sidelines or not having the fullness of joy as we spread the Good News. Many of us no doubt are tired; of this old world and its decrepit systems; the flesh and the Devil in whatever order their situation finds most applicable to their individual misery. This bad news about the inevitable events of the end times can't be dealt with effectively if there is still baggage holding us captive. In our flesh we simply can't fathom the meaning of all of our comforts being taken away which can happen in persecution now and today; but surely is coming in spades after our removal from this place.
Now the world when we are with the Lord in heaven will be relieved that they can finally initiate their view of utopia; according to their own desires for a world of their own imaginations when the man of sin comes in his own name yet eventually declares himself to be God. Whether they are not fully cognizant of the event or more likely deliberately rejecting the truth because they didn't love it; they will find this Antichrist irresistable. Whether it is filling the Western European vacuum since World War 2 of a dictator of charisma; or a religious fulfillment of all faiths including no doubt ALL of apostate "Christians" left behind the New Age prophecy of our "reeducation" will commence and the "evolutionary leap" for mankind set in motion.
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
Dear "Lbooth1955" You have many fine explanations. But when things get choppy, uncertainty often creeps in, because it's not based on the truth. That's how it is for all of us. Where are the believers in Christ during the great tribulation? And where will we be when God's wrath comes? U dont need to answer. Rev 19:11-16 Is that when you mean Jesus will come and judge the living and the dead? Or where is that stand? There are some truths here in John 12:27-32 and further for those who want 33-36 JESUS SAYS Now the common judgment. So if we put it together with the fact that Jesus' death and resurrection have their own time calculation. Let's say that when He died the 1000 years started. Then it means that today we are still in Christ also with all those who have died in Christ. Anyone who doubts this should read the book of Hebrews carefully. Because you will find favor in the sight of the Lord. And what is written in John here, it may also seem that we live in great peace, compared to previous times, right?
But to go on. You had a question yesterday. If someone thinks that we can do so that we are not worthy to come to God. It can happen. I got words today when I opened the Bible, just for you. 1 Cor 9:27 So we must take up our cross every day, and follow Jesus' pure path. That also means if we sin and repent. Is God's grace greater than human grace. And here a sinner must repent and know that the Spirit of the Lord lives in him. All days until the end of the world! Love you in Christ. Be strong and courageous.
Jesus has said so much Himself. So for us humans and interpreting a vision given to John on Patmos has always been a draw towards the mysterious, we humans love secrets and solving puzzles. But Jesus has said everything that needs to be said. Also His disciples. Then He lets us pray for wisdom and the Spirit of understanding so that we can keep up with the times that are and were and are to come.
The Old Testament repeatedly promised Israel a literal, earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah from Jerusalem. God covenanted to give Abraham's seed the land forever ( Gen. 13:14-15; 17:8) and swore to David an eternal throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 89:3-4). Prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah described worldwide peace, justice, and worship centered in Jerusalem ( Isa. 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44; Zech. 14:9,16-17). The Jewish expectation was simple: Messiah would come once, overthrow Gentile powers, restore Israel, and rule immediately-no concept of a second coming or a rapture.
When Jesus came, this expectation shaped all responses. John the Baptist and Jesus proclaimed, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" ( Matt. 3:2; 4:17). Crowds hailed "the kingdom of our father David" ( Mark 11:10) and tried to make Him king ( John 6:15). Many "thought that the kingdom should immediately appear" ( Luke 19:11). The disciples expected thrones and rulership ( Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:29-30) and even after the resurrection asked, "Wilt thou restore again the kingdom to Israel?" ( Acts 1:6).
The crucifixion brought deep confusion-"We trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel" ( Luke 24:21). Even hearing of His death puzzled them ( John 12:34), since prophecy spoke of Messiah's eternal reign, not His suffering first.
Israel's rejection of Messiah delayed the kingdom. God then revealed through Paul the hidden "mystery" ( Eph. 3:1-9): Jew and Gentile in one Body, a heavenly people awaiting the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18). The promised earthly kingdom will still come-but only at Christ's second coming ( Rev. 19-20), after the Church is removed and Israel's prophetic program resumes.
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Thank you for your reply, I certainly do not mind. I understand that this subject is delicate, and I am blessed to have brothers and sisters on this site willing to discuss it. Revelation is a challenging book, and I am looking forward to Jesse getting through it.
You have listed some exciting verses, and I hope to share my thoughts on them and your post, not to determine who may be right, but rather to view the discussion as a nudge to pray and study. On the verses you listed, John 12:49-50, Jesus is saying the Father gave Him a commandment and what the Father told Him to say, Jesus was obedient.
John 8:28-29, the Pharisees were debating with Jesus who He was, and He said that in verse 28-29 when He is lifted up/crucified, they will know who He is. We see in Matthew 28:54 when Jesus died and those things that happened, the centurion and those who were there greatly feared and said, "Truly this was the Son of God.
John 7:16-19, the gospels, reveal the glory of the Father who sent Jesus; all that Jesus did was accomplished by the Father through the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus was anointed without measure.
In John 4:34, John 5:19, John 5:30, and John 8:26 all say that it is the Father, not Him, on in John 14:10 Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him this was from the time Jesus was anointed without measure the Holy Spirit when He was baptized and made the Messiah.
Jesus was and is the Word of God; John 1:14. God was in the flesh in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just like these verses say. The beginning in John, many understand it as the beginning of creation, my understanding is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as we see in Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 1:1.
To me, Jesus was the first in the plan of God, Revelation 3:14, and everything was created in Jesus, not by Him, and all was created for Jesus and the purpose of the Father. Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-21.
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Gigi, I believe Israel was "to be" blinded before the ministry of Christ For a lack of a better way to put it.
Here's why.
If Israel would have received Christ, then we would be still under the Levitical priesthood.
There would be no redemption from the curse of the law.
There would be no baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The list goes on. You would have to rewrite every page in the Bible, especially Hebrews!
There would be no rebirth by the death and resurrection of Christ.
The Jews didn't kill Christ! The love of the father to a lost world did!
And that's the WHOLE WORLD!!
John 12:23-24 READS
"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR.
IF THE JEWS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST THIS HOUR WOULD NOT HAVE COME.
This is why I say you should word it the way Paul penned it. It is Paul's Kinsman in the flesh that was blinded. I believe it is easier to understand it worded as such rather than saying he blinded the Jews." Meaning Israel blinded under "THAT" ministry in regards to salvation. in that manner they have been blinded. There's a difference Gigi!
I believe Israel blindness was prophetic but yet preordained. Paul is quoting Isaiah 6:9-10 in Romans.
If you look at any other kind of way, it looks like Israel blindness was a plan B.
Many traditions are followed, but do they line up with Scripture? The week Jesus was crucified, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the first day of the week, which would have been the 10th of Nisan. This would be the same day the people were to put up the lamb that would be sacrificed on Passover Day, the 14th of Nisan, Exodus 12:3. The money changers were selling animals for the Passover and other sacrifices. They were also exchanging money for the temple tax or tribute; it had to be a half-shekel.
Each day is recorded in Matthew 21 through Matthew 27:56, Mark 11:1 through Mark 15:41, Luke 19:28 through Luke 23:49, and John 12:1 through John 19:37.
John 12:1 John states it was six days before Passover when they arrived in Bethany, and the next day Jesus rode into Jerusalem, which was five days until Passover. Today, this day is referred to as Palm Sunday, the first day of the week.
Day one, 10th of Nisan, Jesus rides into Jerusalem, casts out the money changers and returns to Bethany, and lodges there, Matthew 21:1-17, Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:1 through Luke 23:49. Luke does not cover the back and forth to Bethany, and John 12:1-50, John then picks up at the Last Supper.
Day two, 11th of Nisan, shows Jesus going back to Jerusalem, the fig tree, casting out the money changers again, just like the first Passover He attended in His three and a half years' ministry, John 2:14-16. The plot started with how to kill Jesus, Matthew 21:18-Matthew 25:46, Mark 11:12 through Mark 13:37, Luke 22:38. Matthew, Mark, and Luke cover Jesus' teachings in the temple, parables, and the Olivet discourse.
Day three, 12th of Nisan, is two days until Passover, Matthew 26:2-13, Mark 14:1-2. The plot to kill Jesus got more intense.
The Gospel of Mark and the final week of Christ's earthly ministry
John 12:5 demonstrates what Judas says along with others in Mark 14. At the end of this story Judas went out to plot the betrayal of Christ for a miserable price of 30 pieces of silver. This isn't specified here; just some money. It is ironic that Judas was so concerned about the money "wasted" by this woman pouring nard perfume on Christ's head and his acceptance of something worth much less; about four months wages it is said for betraying Christ compared to the more than a year's value of money of the nard. For a thief all along surely he could have bargained a price enough to maintain him the rest of his life considering the significance of Christ's "threat" to the religious establishment. Matthew 28 shows a whole group of soldiers being bribed to lie about what happened to Christ's body.
The next scene is the Passover or Last Supper. Given that they still seemed confused as to the betrayal at least who would do it they probably were still blinded to the whole concept of His crucifixion. This is what makes the above narrative so interesting; this woman not only honored Christ but prepared Him for His death with a deliberate proactive response. Again this is something I never paid attention to before; just focused on Luke 7 and the account of the sinful woman and perhaps missed the significance of this later event.
The account of Gethsemene as well as the earlier Passover meal has no mention whatsoever in Mark's Gospel of what it does in John; it only covers His prayers for Himself in a life and death battle preceding the cross. Again this is hard to handle seeing the "inner circle" of Peter; James and John along with the rest falling asleep repeatedly with Jesus in His greatest time of need in the final hour before His capture and trial and crucifixion the next day. The denial of Christ is here once more; and finally in verse 72 at the end Peter breaks down. Sobering...
John records in chapters 12-17 the events in the last week of Christ's ministry leading up to his capture in verse 18 and the Crucifixion itself in chapter 19. Once again I hope I read the text carefully in order to say that here there are no further miracles demonstrated in His ministry. The controversy over Lazarus would start events rolling with the insane desire to have both him and Christ killed off ( John 12:9-11). The actual excoriation as I put it of the Pharisees is absent in John's account. Jesus in this Gospel is given much more emphasis as to His discourse with the Disciples which involved themes of the Trinity; His necessity to leave and comfort about the coming Spirit and His coming again and the prayer for the church as a whole in chapter 17. I shouldn't neglect the prophetic warnings in chapter 16 in being put to death.
The fact that 1/3 of the Gospels involves "Passion week" is significant. There was no time to waste; as Jesus knew the great shock to come would catch them off guard; that they would all run away and needed assurance as to the Spirit's role in transformation. Details about His death and resurrection are in all 4 gospels as it is no doubt the most significant aspect of His ministry as pertaining to us; even today. John 19:26 is the last mention of what are said to be 6 mentionings of "the one Jesus loved" in regard to John the author of this Gospel. At first glance that would seem rather arrogant. Maybe someone here has some insight; I would surmise that:
1) John was part of the group who went up in the Transfiguration. Interestingly; this event is NOT covered in John but in the other 3 Gospel accounts as well as 2 Peter. This would constitute the "inner circle" so to speak.
2) John laid across his bosom ( John 13:23).
3) Jesus Himself mentioned "if I want him to remain; what is that to you" in John 21:22 responding to Peter. He would die a natural death before then.
Secondly; it was the last public event before the crucifixion where He had the opportunity to speak freely in public. We must remember that He would only say what the Father gave Him to say ( John 12:49). Surely God the Father knew what was about to happen and had righteous indignation as to the blindness of those who were ruling over His people unjustly. He knew that they were the ones who would help to propel Pilate to go through with the crucifixion. At this point God's patience was running out; for there would be no more signs and miracles apart from the Resurrection which no doubt they would disregard and buy into the insane narrative that the body was stolen.
To deny Jesus' divine nature and present Him as only human who needed the Holy Spirit to tell Him what the Father wanted Him to do or to know the Father or to perform miracles is untruthful as it denies what Scripture does teach about Jesus' divine nature and His unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit and His divine ability to do all that He does through His own power and authority as God in the flesh.
It is true that Jesus only did what the Father willed (speaking to His human nature) as His divine will was the same as the Father's and that He said only what the Father spoke to Him ( John 12:49), because He is the divine Word ( John 1:1).
Your portrayal of Jesus in your post is consistent with your belief that Jesus is not God. And I ma sure you most likely thought I would comment on your post because I believe Scriptures say that He is God in the flesh, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God--Three divine Persons in one divine Being.
I believe it is important to correctly reflect what Scriptures do teach about Jesus, and you made errors in this post. What one promotes about being true of Jesus is of cardinal importance in matters of doctrine and faith. That is why I speak up.
All pre-existed in the mind, thoughts, reason, and doctrine of our God the Father, the definition of logos. Revelation 3:14, the beginning of the creation of God, the starting point, the predetermined position of authority that God would give to His Son at the point in time that God planned before creation.
Jesus understood all the Scriptures that foretold the glory destined for Him in the mind of God the Father before creation. God's thoughts and plans began with Jesus, who became the tabernacle of God in flesh on earth. Through Him, eternal life can be bestowed upon all who believe in Him. Every word Jesus spoke was God's word: John 7:15-16, John 12:49, John 14:24.
How should we understand verse 3? Jesus, in prayer to the Father, states that eternal life is dependent on knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent.
Jesus knew who He was. He said in John 20:17, He had a Father and a God. Jesus is praying to His Father, He had no power of himself; all he did and said was the Father working in him. Jesus perfectly submitted to God's will by choice and obedience; the glory Jesus was praying for was yet to be realized, only in the knowledge He had from Scripture and the Holy Spirit He was anointed with, without measure of what it would be.
We must confess Jesus is the Son of God.
I am sorry for this long post; read it, study it, or ignore it. I love you guys.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jesus has come to the end of His earthly mission, the time of His crucifixion has come near, John 13:1. Jesus said, "glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:" Jesus has been obedient to His Father and has finished what He was sent to do, except for the last hours of left in Passover day when He will suffer and die.
The words that Jesus spoke are written in John 13 through John 16; all five chapters were written about while they were in the room where they had the Last Supper. He lifted His eyes to heaven. Jesus was praying to the Father, and the disciples were there. Judas left just before Jesus started this prayer. Jesus is in the upper room just before going to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus prays for Himself, his disciples, and all future believers.
His hour had come, as He said in Luke 22:15-16, He desired to eat this Passover before He suffered, but He would not be there to eat it. And in John 12:23, He said the hour had come that He should be glorified. In John 7:33-39, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that those who believe in Him will receive, but it has not been given yet because Jesus was not yet glorified/resurrected. God glorified Jesus when He raised Jesus from the dead in His glorified body. We will also be raised in a body fashioned like His, Philippians 3:21.
Jesus knew what He would have to endure later that day: death on the cross. In this prayer, we can see Jesus' love for his disciples and his desire for them to remain in faith and purpose. His emotions in this prayer intensified in the garden, as reflected in Matthew 26:38-43 and Luke 22:40-44. All that Jesus did throughout His mission on earth was to glorify God, showing us the importance of glorifying God in all our actions.
Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Renewing the theme of Christ's knowledge of upcoming death on the cross; it is hard not to sympathize with the disciples who were "exceedingly sorry" ( Matt. 17:23) or something to that affect. For Christ to be able to even concentrate on anything else is remarkable at least looking at my own pitiful faith and willingness to die for Christ. This may be the best kept secret in the Gospels; we see it later on ( Galatians 2:20); but Christ was in some sense dying to self even though He had no sin; His life demonstrated total dependence on the Spirit. Doing this explains what only saying what the Father tells Him to say ( John 12:49) demonstrates. Jesus wasn't going to operate in His own strength; even though He was sinless it would involve deviating from His call and mission which would have been wrong. These actions would cause Him to be promoted in some ways as a man as the Father gave Him "all authority in heaven and earth" ( Matt. 28:18); along with other promises for His upcoming Millennial reign. As the Creator surely He had all authority in one sense; but in God's Divine plan He would have to come first as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 before coming back in vengeance and flaming fire ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). This illustrates how He as the first of the firstfruits came before the rest of the N.T. saints and how we; in turn can gain rewards through obedience; including martyrdom with specific crowns for this and other works of the Spirit in a believer's life and faith walk.
As a general statement we can also say that Christ was never half hearted about anything. Whether it was care for His mother during His crucifixion delegated to John; telling all the woman at the well had done; rebuking the religious establishment for hypocricy; overturning the moneychangers we see righteous love and indignation.
I believe that lad to be Lazarus. If you cross reference it with John 11, you can see the Jewish leaders even desiring to kill Lazarus ( John 12:10) because of Jesus raising him from the dead and the fame that gave our Lord Jesus. Plus, Jesus was staying at Bethany, where Lazarus was, at this time. So, it would make sense for Lazarus to be the Lad that runs off naked.
Dr. Ruckman makes another great point in the fact that, like I said early the Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus. All the disciples got away, but they laid hold on someone, and he ran away naked for he knew his life was in danger! So, I strongly believe it to be Lazarus.
Mark 10:45 talks about Christ coming not to be served but to serve and giving His life as a ransom for many. This is also quoted in Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45. This theme again is played out through His preaching to the masses as we saw in the last posting; or to His Disciples. Service goes beyond Him being a "Cosmic Vending Machine" however ( John 6:26). What people needed was salvation of their souls resulting from forgiveness of sins; and He would emphasize this when performing His miracles even though His own life was threatened. He knew of course that He couldn't be touched until His time had come; and while He was on the earth His 12 Disciples also were protected; which we see when the soldiers came to arrest Him in Gethsemene. He was there to rebuke Peter when necessary and even offered what was considered the choice sop to Judas Iscariot before His betrayal. Unlike us as mortal men Jesus had us on His mind even facing death on a cross the next day; praying for all those who would come to Him eventually being as one; and as I mentioned before for Mary his mother to have John look after her as a mother showing that Joseph was almost certainly deceased at this time. He even reached out to the repentant criminal on the cross next to Him when dying assuring he would be with Him in paradise. Luke 23:34 is the ultimate forgiveness to those who didn't know what they were doing.
Part of service and having others as a priority over our own needs is taking time out for prayer. Jesus prayed all night before picking His 12 Disciples and this wasn't the only time He did this. Communicating with His Father in heaven was a constant ongoing process as He only said what the Father told Him ( John 12:49 etal). Service therefore for the Christian must involve a commitment of time not only for prayer for others but for ourselves; He may have been restricted while on earth to live as one of us but prayed to focus on God how much more should we seek Him?
Blessed are those who are poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God ( Matthew 5:3). Another translation attempts to define this as
'God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him,for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs. (NLT)
This first verse should burst the bubble for those who think they can earn their way to rightousness in their own merit.
Focusing attention on this series about Christ being the perfect man; He would say things not to please men but to preach the truth. In this case it is perhaps a unique one where He doesn't get a stern rebuke; death threat or actual attempt at His life as He is speaking to the crowds or the "common people" those who are at least potentially truly blessed as that is the meaning of the "Beatitudes" as this section of scripture is often referred to. We of course see this pattern with the blessings in Deuteronomy 28 followed by curses in the end of this chapter (and also a bunch in the preceeding one as well). Jesus would spend much time excoriating the Pharisees with no holds barred in later chapters of the Gospels. We will get into that later; in short it is safe to say that the meek; mild Jesus who never caused division or strife is at best misguided at worst delusional. We need to keep in mind that ALL of Jesus' actions were righteous; whether in anger or praise. We are reminded of this verse:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
I feel that in the church this is even more important than anger as a general problem; anger at least addresses an issue while empty praise reminds us of the hymn Be thou my vision written in the 1920s by Mary Byrne but based on a 6th Century poem by Dalln Forgaill
1. Be thou my vision, O Lord of my heart; Naught be all else to me save that thou art. ...
2. Be thou my wisdom, and thou my true Word; ...
3. Be thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight; ...
So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning ofbarleyharvest.
2 Kings 4:42
And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves ofbarley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
2. Wheat , Second Coming
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn ofwheatfall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
1 Samuel 6:13
And they of Bethshemesh were reaping theirwheatharvest in the valley: and they lifted up their eyes, and saw the ark, and rejoiced to see it.
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather thewheatinto my barn
3. Grapes , Wrath of God
Revelation 14:18
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for hergrapesare fully ripe.
Isaiah 5:2
And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forthgrapes, and it brought forth wildgrapes.
Mark 15:23
And they gave him to drinkwinemingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will notdrinkhenceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when Idrinkit new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
As a man, yea as a Son, Jesus now talks to & prays to His Father in Heaven. He also said that He came to only do His Father's Will ( John 6:38), so in every respect, Jesus laid aside His Glory that He enjoyed with & in God, & as a Man waited upon His Father continually.
To the natural mind, how could Jesus be God & then be found praying to & worshiping Him? My answer is that Jesus laid aside that Glory & Position to become a Man, a Man Who came to be sacrificed ( John 12:27), and now a Son, subservient to His Father in all things. So how does God then become a Son? That is why God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son & Holy Spirit - if one aspect of His Nature is removed, I believe that God ceases to be God. Just as if our spirit or soul or body is removed or put to death, we instantly cease to be the person that was once born into the world. God exists as a Tripartite God - He can't exist as any other - that is Who He is (as revealed to us). For our sakes, God chose to take that part of Himself & give it flesh (what we otherwise understand as and called, His Word). This act doesn't render God speechless or in any way deficient in knowledge, for His Word is still active in Christ & by His Spirit. And He has given us His Word (both in Christ & the written Word) & His Spirit, thus causing us to truly become new creatures, alive in Jesus & to be lovingly called, the children of the Most High. What a great privilege - what an undeserved position we have been granted, as those already seated in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST ( Ephesians 2:4-7). And that is how our Father sees us & receives us - His blood-bought, His special children, His Spirit-sealed, forever His - because of His Work alone to ransom us. Onto Page 5.
The above means that if Jesus had not died on the cross, He alone would had remained, without saving anyone to Himself.
Jesus went all the way to the end, without abandoning us. Had He given up during the crucifixion, we would had been lost forever. So He patiently endured the pain. He patiently suffered the nails in His body. Because He had a vision in His mind. He saw the future. He saw us all in His Kingdom, happy with Him forever.
I once wondered. What was in Jesus' mind during the crucifixion? What could He have been thinking? Was He thinking of His palaces in Heaven that He left behind? Maybe the other two persons of the Godhead? Maybe His life there before He became one of us? Maybe His angels? Maybe the pain? No, nothing like that. He was thinking of me and you and you... all of us. He gave Himself courage, as if He were saying to Himself, "Endure my soul a little longer, for John, endure my soul a little longer for Mary, endure my soul a little longer for David, endure a liitle bit for.." In His mind were all of the faces of ours. And He did not want to lose a single one of us. So He endured to the end.
Similarly, are we willing to endure the pain, the nails, the cross to save others? It is not easy. We have to accept ridicule, insults, bullying and so many other things from people of the world who will sometimes try to make our lives a nightmare. But are we willing to suffer to the end? Some of them will never believe, but some will be influenced and attracted to Jesus after seeing our holy behavior.
So? Will you endure the nails to save your wife, your husband, your relative, your friend, your neighbor, your collegue? God will give the grace to bear. But the decision is yours. If you decide not crucify yourself you will be left on your own, just you, noone else.
Brother Jesse has provided Scriptures to consider on this matter. I could offer Scriptures that would debate these points, but that would not answer your questions. This doctrine originated in 325 A.D. and was expanded over the next 150 years or so. You need to pray and study for your own conscience.
The majority support this doctrine, and some believe it is essential to be a Christian. Jesus is our Lord, and He gave His life to pay the penalty for sin so that we, through Him, can be reconciled to God. The wages of sin are death, Romans 6:23. Jesus' death on the cross paid this price.
Jesus had His own will, but was obedient and did the will of the Father, John 14:31, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, John 17:16, John 12:49.
The Chalcedonian Creed A.D. 451 states, "Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, in confusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of nature's being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved." Does Scripture support this?
God alone possesses immortality, 1 Timothy 6:16. Our faith rests on the death and resurrection of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:12-17. God cannot die. Jesus was tempted in the same ways we are, Hebrews 4:14-16. God cannot be tempted, James 1:13.
The Bible will answer all questions we have if we are ready to receive the answer, Matthew 7:7, James 1:5, with prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit-not man.
God bless your study,
RLW
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ( John 12:32).
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. ( Luke 4:20).
I write this post basically as an indebtment to myself as to failings in fulfilling the Great Commission. The enemy would like to have us all rendered useless; sitting in the sidelines or not having the fullness of joy as we spread the Good News. Many of us no doubt are tired; of this old world and its decrepit systems; the flesh and the Devil in whatever order their situation finds most applicable to their individual misery. This bad news about the inevitable events of the end times can't be dealt with effectively if there is still baggage holding us captive. In our flesh we simply can't fathom the meaning of all of our comforts being taken away which can happen in persecution now and today; but surely is coming in spades after our removal from this place.
Now the world when we are with the Lord in heaven will be relieved that they can finally initiate their view of utopia; according to their own desires for a world of their own imaginations when the man of sin comes in his own name yet eventually declares himself to be God. Whether they are not fully cognizant of the event or more likely deliberately rejecting the truth because they didn't love it; they will find this Antichrist irresistable. Whether it is filling the Western European vacuum since World War 2 of a dictator of charisma; or a religious fulfillment of all faiths including no doubt ALL of apostate "Christians" left behind the New Age prophecy of our "reeducation" will commence and the "evolutionary leap" for mankind set in motion.
I'll say glad to be outta here.
John 12:25
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
Blessings
But to go on. You had a question yesterday. If someone thinks that we can do so that we are not worthy to come to God. It can happen. I got words today when I opened the Bible, just for you. 1 Cor 9:27 So we must take up our cross every day, and follow Jesus' pure path. That also means if we sin and repent. Is God's grace greater than human grace. And here a sinner must repent and know that the Spirit of the Lord lives in him. All days until the end of the world! Love you in Christ. Be strong and courageous.
Jesus has said so much Himself. So for us humans and interpreting a vision given to John on Patmos has always been a draw towards the mysterious, we humans love secrets and solving puzzles. But Jesus has said everything that needs to be said. Also His disciples. Then He lets us pray for wisdom and the Spirit of understanding so that we can keep up with the times that are and were and are to come.
This is my understanding on the matter.
The Old Testament repeatedly promised Israel a literal, earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah from Jerusalem. God covenanted to give Abraham's seed the land forever ( Gen. 13:14-15; 17:8) and swore to David an eternal throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 89:3-4). Prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah described worldwide peace, justice, and worship centered in Jerusalem ( Isa. 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44; Zech. 14:9,16-17). The Jewish expectation was simple: Messiah would come once, overthrow Gentile powers, restore Israel, and rule immediately-no concept of a second coming or a rapture.
When Jesus came, this expectation shaped all responses. John the Baptist and Jesus proclaimed, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" ( Matt. 3:2; 4:17). Crowds hailed "the kingdom of our father David" ( Mark 11:10) and tried to make Him king ( John 6:15). Many "thought that the kingdom should immediately appear" ( Luke 19:11). The disciples expected thrones and rulership ( Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:29-30) and even after the resurrection asked, "Wilt thou restore again the kingdom to Israel?" ( Acts 1:6).
The crucifixion brought deep confusion-"We trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel" ( Luke 24:21). Even hearing of His death puzzled them ( John 12:34), since prophecy spoke of Messiah's eternal reign, not His suffering first.
Israel's rejection of Messiah delayed the kingdom. God then revealed through Paul the hidden "mystery" ( Eph. 3:1-9): Jew and Gentile in one Body, a heavenly people awaiting the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18). The promised earthly kingdom will still come-but only at Christ's second coming ( Rev. 19-20), after the Church is removed and Israel's prophetic program resumes.
Blessings to all.
My question in regard to verse
Revelation 20:12
How many books were opened?
Where is the reference to sins we have committed?
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
So the conclusion is unavoidable-God is Good
"I and my Father are one."
John 12:45
"And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."
John 8:19
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Blessings
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Blessings
Part 1
Thank you for your reply, I certainly do not mind. I understand that this subject is delicate, and I am blessed to have brothers and sisters on this site willing to discuss it. Revelation is a challenging book, and I am looking forward to Jesse getting through it.
You have listed some exciting verses, and I hope to share my thoughts on them and your post, not to determine who may be right, but rather to view the discussion as a nudge to pray and study. On the verses you listed, John 12:49-50, Jesus is saying the Father gave Him a commandment and what the Father told Him to say, Jesus was obedient.
John 8:28-29, the Pharisees were debating with Jesus who He was, and He said that in verse 28-29 when He is lifted up/crucified, they will know who He is. We see in Matthew 28:54 when Jesus died and those things that happened, the centurion and those who were there greatly feared and said, "Truly this was the Son of God.
John 7:16-19, the gospels, reveal the glory of the Father who sent Jesus; all that Jesus did was accomplished by the Father through the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus was anointed without measure.
In John 4:34, John 5:19, John 5:30, and John 8:26 all say that it is the Father, not Him, on in John 14:10 Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Him this was from the time Jesus was anointed without measure the Holy Spirit when He was baptized and made the Messiah.
Jesus was and is the Word of God; John 1:14. God was in the flesh in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, just like these verses say. The beginning in John, many understand it as the beginning of creation, my understanding is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, as we see in Mark 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 1:1.
To me, Jesus was the first in the plan of God, Revelation 3:14, and everything was created in Jesus, not by Him, and all was created for Jesus and the purpose of the Father. Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-21.
See part 2
"I and my Father are one."
John 12:45
"And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."
John 8:19
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Blessings
"And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."
Blessings
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."
Blessings
Part 2.
Romans 11:25
Gigi, I believe Israel was "to be" blinded before the ministry of Christ For a lack of a better way to put it.
Here's why.
If Israel would have received Christ, then we would be still under the Levitical priesthood.
There would be no redemption from the curse of the law.
There would be no baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The list goes on. You would have to rewrite every page in the Bible, especially Hebrews!
There would be no rebirth by the death and resurrection of Christ.
The Jews didn't kill Christ! The love of the father to a lost world did!
And that's the WHOLE WORLD!!
John 12:23-24 READS
"And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR.
IF THE JEWS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST THIS HOUR WOULD NOT HAVE COME.
This is why I say you should word it the way Paul penned it. It is Paul's Kinsman in the flesh that was blinded. I believe it is easier to understand it worded as such rather than saying he blinded the Jews." Meaning Israel blinded under "THAT" ministry in regards to salvation. in that manner they have been blinded. There's a difference Gigi!
I believe Israel blindness was prophetic but yet preordained. Paul is quoting Isaiah 6:9-10 in Romans.
If you look at any other kind of way, it looks like Israel blindness was a plan B.
See Part 3.
Psalm 107:2
John 1:12
John 12:47
Romans 10:13
Hebrews 11:6
1 Peter 2:9
This is a good place to start. Join the Grow app if you would like to join a community of believers to encourage you in your journey
Many traditions are followed, but do they line up with Scripture? The week Jesus was crucified, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the first day of the week, which would have been the 10th of Nisan. This would be the same day the people were to put up the lamb that would be sacrificed on Passover Day, the 14th of Nisan, Exodus 12:3. The money changers were selling animals for the Passover and other sacrifices. They were also exchanging money for the temple tax or tribute; it had to be a half-shekel.
Each day is recorded in Matthew 21 through Matthew 27:56, Mark 11:1 through Mark 15:41, Luke 19:28 through Luke 23:49, and John 12:1 through John 19:37.
John 12:1 John states it was six days before Passover when they arrived in Bethany, and the next day Jesus rode into Jerusalem, which was five days until Passover. Today, this day is referred to as Palm Sunday, the first day of the week.
Day one, 10th of Nisan, Jesus rides into Jerusalem, casts out the money changers and returns to Bethany, and lodges there, Matthew 21:1-17, Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:1 through Luke 23:49. Luke does not cover the back and forth to Bethany, and John 12:1-50, John then picks up at the Last Supper.
Day two, 11th of Nisan, shows Jesus going back to Jerusalem, the fig tree, casting out the money changers again, just like the first Passover He attended in His three and a half years' ministry, John 2:14-16. The plot started with how to kill Jesus, Matthew 21:18- Matthew 25:46, Mark 11:12 through Mark 13:37, Luke 22:38. Matthew, Mark, and Luke cover Jesus' teachings in the temple, parables, and the Olivet discourse.
Day three, 12th of Nisan, is two days until Passover, Matthew 26:2-13, Mark 14:1-2. The plot to kill Jesus got more intense.
See part 2
John 12:5 demonstrates what Judas says along with others in Mark 14. At the end of this story Judas went out to plot the betrayal of Christ for a miserable price of 30 pieces of silver. This isn't specified here; just some money. It is ironic that Judas was so concerned about the money "wasted" by this woman pouring nard perfume on Christ's head and his acceptance of something worth much less; about four months wages it is said for betraying Christ compared to the more than a year's value of money of the nard. For a thief all along surely he could have bargained a price enough to maintain him the rest of his life considering the significance of Christ's "threat" to the religious establishment. Matthew 28 shows a whole group of soldiers being bribed to lie about what happened to Christ's body.
The next scene is the Passover or Last Supper. Given that they still seemed confused as to the betrayal at least who would do it they probably were still blinded to the whole concept of His crucifixion. This is what makes the above narrative so interesting; this woman not only honored Christ but prepared Him for His death with a deliberate proactive response. Again this is something I never paid attention to before; just focused on Luke 7 and the account of the sinful woman and perhaps missed the significance of this later event.
The account of Gethsemene as well as the earlier Passover meal has no mention whatsoever in Mark's Gospel of what it does in John; it only covers His prayers for Himself in a life and death battle preceding the cross. Again this is hard to handle seeing the "inner circle" of Peter; James and John along with the rest falling asleep repeatedly with Jesus in His greatest time of need in the final hour before His capture and trial and crucifixion the next day. The denial of Christ is here once more; and finally in verse 72 at the end Peter breaks down. Sobering...
John records in chapters 12-17 the events in the last week of Christ's ministry leading up to his capture in verse 18 and the Crucifixion itself in chapter 19. Once again I hope I read the text carefully in order to say that here there are no further miracles demonstrated in His ministry. The controversy over Lazarus would start events rolling with the insane desire to have both him and Christ killed off ( John 12:9-11). The actual excoriation as I put it of the Pharisees is absent in John's account. Jesus in this Gospel is given much more emphasis as to His discourse with the Disciples which involved themes of the Trinity; His necessity to leave and comfort about the coming Spirit and His coming again and the prayer for the church as a whole in chapter 17. I shouldn't neglect the prophetic warnings in chapter 16 in being put to death.
The fact that 1/3 of the Gospels involves "Passion week" is significant. There was no time to waste; as Jesus knew the great shock to come would catch them off guard; that they would all run away and needed assurance as to the Spirit's role in transformation. Details about His death and resurrection are in all 4 gospels as it is no doubt the most significant aspect of His ministry as pertaining to us; even today. John 19:26 is the last mention of what are said to be 6 mentionings of "the one Jesus loved" in regard to John the author of this Gospel. At first glance that would seem rather arrogant. Maybe someone here has some insight; I would surmise that:
1) John was part of the group who went up in the Transfiguration. Interestingly; this event is NOT covered in John but in the other 3 Gospel accounts as well as 2 Peter. This would constitute the "inner circle" so to speak.
2) John laid across his bosom ( John 13:23).
3) Jesus Himself mentioned "if I want him to remain; what is that to you" in John 21:22 responding to Peter. He would die a natural death before then.
Secondly; it was the last public event before the crucifixion where He had the opportunity to speak freely in public. We must remember that He would only say what the Father gave Him to say ( John 12:49). Surely God the Father knew what was about to happen and had righteous indignation as to the blindness of those who were ruling over His people unjustly. He knew that they were the ones who would help to propel Pilate to go through with the crucifixion. At this point God's patience was running out; for there would be no more signs and miracles apart from the Resurrection which no doubt they would disregard and buy into the insane narrative that the body was stolen.
Pt. 2
To deny Jesus' divine nature and present Him as only human who needed the Holy Spirit to tell Him what the Father wanted Him to do or to know the Father or to perform miracles is untruthful as it denies what Scripture does teach about Jesus' divine nature and His unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit and His divine ability to do all that He does through His own power and authority as God in the flesh.
It is true that Jesus only did what the Father willed (speaking to His human nature) as His divine will was the same as the Father's and that He said only what the Father spoke to Him ( John 12:49), because He is the divine Word ( John 1:1).
Your portrayal of Jesus in your post is consistent with your belief that Jesus is not God. And I ma sure you most likely thought I would comment on your post because I believe Scriptures say that He is God in the flesh, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God--Three divine Persons in one divine Being.
I believe it is important to correctly reflect what Scriptures do teach about Jesus, and you made errors in this post. What one promotes about being true of Jesus is of cardinal importance in matters of doctrine and faith. That is why I speak up.
John 17:1-5,
All pre-existed in the mind, thoughts, reason, and doctrine of our God the Father, the definition of logos. Revelation 3:14, the beginning of the creation of God, the starting point, the predetermined position of authority that God would give to His Son at the point in time that God planned before creation.
Jesus understood all the Scriptures that foretold the glory destined for Him in the mind of God the Father before creation. God's thoughts and plans began with Jesus, who became the tabernacle of God in flesh on earth. Through Him, eternal life can be bestowed upon all who believe in Him. Every word Jesus spoke was God's word: John 7:15-16, John 12:49, John 14:24.
How should we understand verse 3? Jesus, in prayer to the Father, states that eternal life is dependent on knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent.
Jesus knew who He was. He said in John 20:17, He had a Father and a God. Jesus is praying to His Father, He had no power of himself; all he did and said was the Father working in him. Jesus perfectly submitted to God's will by choice and obedience; the glory Jesus was praying for was yet to be realized, only in the knowledge He had from Scripture and the Holy Spirit He was anointed with, without measure of what it would be.
We must confess Jesus is the Son of God.
I am sorry for this long post; read it, study it, or ignore it. I love you guys.
God bless,
RLW
Part 1
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jesus has come to the end of His earthly mission, the time of His crucifixion has come near, John 13:1. Jesus said, "glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:" Jesus has been obedient to His Father and has finished what He was sent to do, except for the last hours of left in Passover day when He will suffer and die.
The words that Jesus spoke are written in John 13 through John 16; all five chapters were written about while they were in the room where they had the Last Supper. He lifted His eyes to heaven. Jesus was praying to the Father, and the disciples were there. Judas left just before Jesus started this prayer. Jesus is in the upper room just before going to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus prays for Himself, his disciples, and all future believers.
His hour had come, as He said in Luke 22:15-16, He desired to eat this Passover before He suffered, but He would not be there to eat it. And in John 12:23, He said the hour had come that He should be glorified. In John 7:33-39, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that those who believe in Him will receive, but it has not been given yet because Jesus was not yet glorified/resurrected. God glorified Jesus when He raised Jesus from the dead in His glorified body. We will also be raised in a body fashioned like His, Philippians 3:21.
Jesus knew what He would have to endure later that day: death on the cross. In this prayer, we can see Jesus' love for his disciples and his desire for them to remain in faith and purpose. His emotions in this prayer intensified in the garden, as reflected in Matthew 26:38-43 and Luke 22:40-44. All that Jesus did throughout His mission on earth was to glorify God, showing us the importance of glorifying God in all our actions.
See part 2
Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Renewing the theme of Christ's knowledge of upcoming death on the cross; it is hard not to sympathize with the disciples who were "exceedingly sorry" ( Matt. 17:23) or something to that affect. For Christ to be able to even concentrate on anything else is remarkable at least looking at my own pitiful faith and willingness to die for Christ. This may be the best kept secret in the Gospels; we see it later on ( Galatians 2:20); but Christ was in some sense dying to self even though He had no sin; His life demonstrated total dependence on the Spirit. Doing this explains what only saying what the Father tells Him to say ( John 12:49) demonstrates. Jesus wasn't going to operate in His own strength; even though He was sinless it would involve deviating from His call and mission which would have been wrong. These actions would cause Him to be promoted in some ways as a man as the Father gave Him "all authority in heaven and earth" ( Matt. 28:18); along with other promises for His upcoming Millennial reign. As the Creator surely He had all authority in one sense; but in God's Divine plan He would have to come first as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 before coming back in vengeance and flaming fire ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8). This illustrates how He as the first of the firstfruits came before the rest of the N.T. saints and how we; in turn can gain rewards through obedience; including martyrdom with specific crowns for this and other works of the Spirit in a believer's life and faith walk.
As a general statement we can also say that Christ was never half hearted about anything. Whether it was care for His mother during His crucifixion delegated to John; telling all the woman at the well had done; rebuking the religious establishment for hypocricy; overturning the moneychangers we see righteous love and indignation.
I believe that lad to be Lazarus. If you cross reference it with John 11, you can see the Jewish leaders even desiring to kill Lazarus ( John 12:10) because of Jesus raising him from the dead and the fame that gave our Lord Jesus. Plus, Jesus was staying at Bethany, where Lazarus was, at this time. So, it would make sense for Lazarus to be the Lad that runs off naked.
Dr. Ruckman makes another great point in the fact that, like I said early the Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus. All the disciples got away, but they laid hold on someone, and he ran away naked for he knew his life was in danger! So, I strongly believe it to be Lazarus.
Part of service and having others as a priority over our own needs is taking time out for prayer. Jesus prayed all night before picking His 12 Disciples and this wasn't the only time He did this. Communicating with His Father in heaven was a constant ongoing process as He only said what the Father told Him ( John 12:49 etal). Service therefore for the Christian must involve a commitment of time not only for prayer for others but for ourselves; He may have been restricted while on earth to live as one of us but prayed to focus on God how much more should we seek Him?
'God blesses those who are poor and realize their need for him,for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs. (NLT)
This first verse should burst the bubble for those who think they can earn their way to rightousness in their own merit.
Focusing attention on this series about Christ being the perfect man; He would say things not to please men but to preach the truth. In this case it is perhaps a unique one where He doesn't get a stern rebuke; death threat or actual attempt at His life as He is speaking to the crowds or the "common people" those who are at least potentially truly blessed as that is the meaning of the "Beatitudes" as this section of scripture is often referred to. We of course see this pattern with the blessings in Deuteronomy 28 followed by curses in the end of this chapter (and also a bunch in the preceeding one as well). Jesus would spend much time excoriating the Pharisees with no holds barred in later chapters of the Gospels. We will get into that later; in short it is safe to say that the meek; mild Jesus who never caused division or strife is at best misguided at worst delusional. We need to keep in mind that ALL of Jesus' actions were righteous; whether in anger or praise. We are reminded of this verse:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
I feel that in the church this is even more important than anger as a general problem; anger at least addresses an issue while empty praise reminds us of the hymn Be thou my vision written in the 1920s by Mary Byrne but based on a 6th Century poem by Dalln Forgaill
1. Be thou my vision, O Lord of my heart; Naught be all else to me save that thou art. ...
2. Be thou my wisdom, and thou my true Word; ...
3. Be thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight; ...
4. Riches I heed not, nor vain, empty praise; ...
1. Barley , Jesus Christ
Ruth 1:22
So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning ofbarleyharvest.
2 Kings 4:42
And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves ofbarley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
2. Wheat , Second Coming
John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn ofwheatfall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
1 Samuel 6:13
And they of Bethshemesh were reaping theirwheatharvest in the valley: and they lifted up their eyes, and saw the ark, and rejoiced to see it.
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather thewheatinto my barn
3. Grapes , Wrath of God
Revelation 14:18
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for hergrapesare fully ripe.
Isaiah 5:2
And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forthgrapes, and it brought forth wildgrapes.
Mark 15:23
And they gave him to drinkwinemingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will notdrinkhenceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when Idrinkit new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
This is my part 2
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
See Pt. 3
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
As a man, yea as a Son, Jesus now talks to & prays to His Father in Heaven. He also said that He came to only do His Father's Will ( John 6:38), so in every respect, Jesus laid aside His Glory that He enjoyed with & in God, & as a Man waited upon His Father continually.
To the natural mind, how could Jesus be God & then be found praying to & worshiping Him? My answer is that Jesus laid aside that Glory & Position to become a Man, a Man Who came to be sacrificed ( John 12:27), and now a Son, subservient to His Father in all things. So how does God then become a Son? That is why God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son & Holy Spirit - if one aspect of His Nature is removed, I believe that God ceases to be God. Just as if our spirit or soul or body is removed or put to death, we instantly cease to be the person that was once born into the world. God exists as a Tripartite God - He can't exist as any other - that is Who He is (as revealed to us). For our sakes, God chose to take that part of Himself & give it flesh (what we otherwise understand as and called, His Word). This act doesn't render God speechless or in any way deficient in knowledge, for His Word is still active in Christ & by His Spirit. And He has given us His Word (both in Christ & the written Word) & His Spirit, thus causing us to truly become new creatures, alive in Jesus & to be lovingly called, the children of the Most High. What a great privilege - what an undeserved position we have been granted, as those already seated in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST ( Ephesians 2:4-7). And that is how our Father sees us & receives us - His blood-bought, His special children, His Spirit-sealed, forever His - because of His Work alone to ransom us. Onto Page 5.