"If the Shroud of Turin is legitimate (which seems undeniable)"
The Scriptures deny the legitimacy of the Shroud of Turin.
-- John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
The Shroud is a one piece woven cloth, Christ was not bury in a one piece linen cloth. His head was wraped in a separate "napkin" and was laid apart from the the burial shourd.
-- John 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Lazarus was also buried the same.
-- 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
With the Holy Spirit within us, we no longer live according to our sinful nature. We recognize that the flesh is inherently corrupt, so there's no need to judge or understand someone based on their outward, physical self-instead, we should connect with them on a spiritual level. God doesn't focus on the flesh, and neither should we. When sharing the gospel with those who are lost, their carnal side will always resist it. That's why we must appeal to their inner spirit, witnessing to that part of them and guiding them away from worldly desires.
Jesus didn't resurrect in a physical body but in a glorified, spiritual one. As believers filled with the Spirit, we eagerly await our own spiritual bodies. Though we haven't received them yet, we're already transformed-we're not who we once
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
This verse apparently involves judging someone's character on outside appearances; but I think it gives us an idea how to approach this subject. Our proclivities when on earth of course are character traits which all men; saved and unsaved represent as to our familiarity and memories of them; with their eternal state nonetheless reflecting the condition of their soul (redeemed or unregenerate).
This verse also mentions Christ; and many have tried to portray His image (not a good idea in regard to the 1st Commandment where we are told not to make an image of anything and worship it). If the Shroud of Turin is legitimate (which seems undeniable); then it is interesting how it isn't worshipped as an icon; but we see many icons or in reality idols representing Christ and Biblical characters which are "venerated" as to their sainthood.
As believers we need to get beyond nostalgia and such because what is important is the eternal and redeemed state of a person in Christ and their individual part in the whole Body of Christ which focuses on His righteousness where we will serve; rule and reign with Him for all eternity. We all will; if proven faithful be rewarded with crowns which will represent our authority and place in the Kingdom.
We can look to David's mention of the child who died with Bathsheeba as he looked forward to going to him someday. We can look to Moses and Elijah who appeared before Christ at the Transfiguration and see the focus of the discussion was centered on Christ; clearly He had communed with them already in the past so that this was just the time and place for fulfillment of things they were already given informed about with intimate fellowship in heaven. (I would say Elijah hasn't died and is one of the 2 last day witnesses).
Hello Moxiemeaux. The Bible doesn't specify how we should deal with the remains of the deceased. It was the norm for Jews to be buried or entombed; whereas burning (cremation) & burial was the norm for Gentiles. Some others, such as the Parsis (Zoroastrians), disposed of their dead by other means, which can't be described here because of its graphic nature.
I feel that it comes down to personal preference and what our financial resources allow. Even though following the general biblical pattern of burial is the preferred, there would have been many Jews, Gentiles, Christians and others through the ages who for various reasons were burned and not buried. As well, many, even today, would be unable to afford a burial, since many more expenses are involved than what folk would have had to bear in earlier days.
As much as it is a difficult question to answer for someone else, ultimately, the Lord takes the spirit & soul of the deceased (to Himself or relegated to hell) regardless of the condition or even existence of a body. I think that 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is helpful in this regard, as the Apostle Paul writes about God giving us a new body, even when the old one lies in the earth or exists no more. So, what's important to us now, is that we know for sure that we are saved through faith in Jesus' Sacrifice & we will be with Him at our death; then what happens to our lifeless remains on Earth (whether buried or cremated), God will take care of that in His Own way. I hope this helps you in some way to be confident in this matter. Blessings.
Hi Stephen. There are several verses that speak about this, but to understand, that unlike those who have rejected Christ and face an eternal judgement ( Revelation 20:11-15) at God's Throne, the one who is truly in Christ will have no part in that judgement, for our sins have been judged and forgiven at the Cross. Our judgement will be based on how we have lived this Spirit-filled, Christ-centered life and used the resources (gifts) and opportunities given by the Lord to be His sweet savor unto all ( 2 Corinthians 2:14-16).
So, those 'Judgement' verses that apply to believers can be found in: Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, the 'Bema' Judgement; 1 Corinthians 9:24,25, aiming for the prize (Crowns) at the end of our race; 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, we no longer face God's Wrath, whether in the Great Tribulation or before His Throne, for our sins have been judged; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, the product (or, works) resulting from our salvation will be put to the test: some will receive rewards, others will be saved but their worthless works perish and they lose out. Just a few verses that immediately come to mind that hopefully will help you.
But Paul goes on immediately in the next verse: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10).
Works are not the root of salvation, but they are the fruit of salvation.
The Spirit of God produces love, service, and obedience in the believer's life ( Galatians 5:22-23; Titus 3:8).
Works are a demonstration of faith, not the basis of it.
The Right Perspective
Works should follow after salvation. But they do not secure salvation, nor do they keep it. They simply manifest the new life we already have in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17).
We are not saved by good works, but we are saved unto good works.
"saved unto good works" is a short phrase with a lot of depth.
1. The Source of Salvation
When Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, he's setting the foundation:
We contribute nothing to earn salvation.
It's God's gift, given freely because of Christ's finished work on the cross.
2. The Purpose of Salvation
Right after that, Paul explains in Ephesians 2:10:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
This means that once God saves us, He also equips us for a new kind of life - a life that reflects His grace, truth, and righteousness.
"Unto good works" means we are saved for the purpose of living out the good things God intended.
3. The Role of Good Works
Not the cause, but the result: Works don't save us, but they are the evidence that we are saved ( Romans 6:4; Titus 3:8).
Spirit-enabled, not self-made: The works are produced as the Spirit lives through us ( Galatians 2:20; Philippians 2:13).
Witness to others: Good works demonstrate Christ's life in us to a watching world ( Matthew 5:16; Philippians 2:15).
The last question, are we saved by grace alone or Grace plus works?
Forgiveness and salvation, while related, are not the same. Scripture shows that forgiveness was granted at the cross nearly 2,000 years ago when Christ bore the sins of the world ( 2 Cor. 5:19). That forgiveness, extended once for all, does not in itself give eternal life. Salvation unto justification comes only through believing the gospel. Romans 5:18 declares that justification unto eternal life is distinct from forgiveness, and it is received through faith.
The gospel Paul preached ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4) is clear: Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, He was buried, and He rose again the third day. In His death He bore our sins, in His burial He put them away, and in His resurrection He rose without them. Faith in this finished work is the only response God requires. Forgiveness already belongs to God; salvation is His gift, received when we believe.
Upon belief, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption ( Eph. 1:13-14). This seal guarantees eternal security-we cannot lose salvation because it is not ours to keep, but God's to preserve. Likewise, the forgiveness secured at Calvary cannot be undone. God does not revoke what He has freely given for Christ's sake.
2 Corinthians 5:14-21 explains that through Christ's substitutionary death, God reconciled the world to Himself, no longer imputing trespasses. Those who believe become new creatures in Christ, made righteous in Him. As ambassadors, we now proclaim this word of reconciliation. The call is urgent: "Now is the day of salvation" ( 2 Cor. 6:2).
Therefore, forgiveness was accomplished at the cross, but justification unto eternal life is only received when one believes the gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Faith alone makes salvation certain, unshakable, and eternal.
(Justification) "No other subject is as important as this one"
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2nd Cor. 5:19
2 Corinthians 5:19 teaches that in Christ, God reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing (counting) people's sins against them. This reconciliation is complete, covering sins of the past, the present, and even those of the future, because Christ's sacrifice was once for all.
Past Sins: The believer's past life of sin has been fully forgiven through Christ's blood. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" ( Colossians 2:13). God does not hold a believer's former life of sin against them: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus" ( 1 Corinthians 6:11).
Present Sins: As believers still live in the flesh, we sometimes stumble, yet Christ's sacrifice continually avails for us. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" ( 1 John 2:1). His righteousness is always applied to us: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" ( Romans 4:8).
Future Sins: Because Christ's sacrifice was once for all, even future sins are covered. "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" ( Hebrews 10:12). This does not encourage sin but assures us that no sin can separate us from God's love. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life nor things present, nor things to come shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" ( Romans 8:38-39).
Thank you. I agree, it is interesting, and some topics may never reveal the full truth. As Paul said, with milk and meat, we may not be ready to understand everything, 1 Corinthians 3:2. We share our understanding out of respect for each other, hoping to inspire prayer and study for the truth.
Can we understand Enoch being translated so he wouldn't see death? How does this fit with Romans 5:12, which says death passed upon all men because all have sinned; Romans 5:14, which states death reigned from Adam to Moses; and Hebrews 9:27, which says it is appointed unto men once to die?
Then there's Jesus saying in John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven." I have my thoughts, but I keep them in my head. There are things God has not revealed, and we must accept this, as in Deuteronomy 29:29.
2 Corinthians 5:9, like Enoch, teaches us that it is by faith we must live, regardless of what we see. Paul confidently states that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. When are we absent from this body? Many believe it's when this body dies, but I feel this idea is influenced by Greek philosophy about the immortal soul.
To me, Scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, says we are raised, not descending; it says we are changed, not rejoined. It says we are mortal and will put on immortality, that's something we did not have before. When we are resurrected, we put on immortality. This is our victory over death and the grave, given to us through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree, we are to be overcomers. Revelation 3:5, Jesus said, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Thanks brother Ronald for those thoughts and your understanding on this matter. Just to give a slight, yet important, correction to your quotation of my post: I wrote of the "SPIRITS of the deceased believers were already in Heaven, etc". So, my understanding (to answer your question) is that we are essentially spirit beings living in mortal bodies. Our spirits can never die ( Acts 7:59; Luke 16:20-23; Matthew 17:1-3) but our bodies certainly will die and perish into the earth ( Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 115:17) and awaiting resurrection. So, because of these perishing bodies, we are mortal beings, but with an immortal spirit that gives us life and one day returns to God.
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
Just something to consider about your post on what Paul was teaching, "deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So, the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth".
I would ask, are we mortal beings or immortal beings? Saying that believers are in heaven and very much alive is saying we are eternal beings, or that our spirit or soul is immortal. If we look at Ecclesiastes 12:7, this applies to all of mankind, whether they are believers or the evilest person who has ever lived. All spirits return to God.
James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead". Adam was not a living soul/being until God breathed into him the breath of life, Genesis 2:7. This is the spirit of life that God gives to all living, and the part of us that God communicates with us, Proverbs 20:27, 2 Corinthians 2:13, and when we die, there is no more communication; we wait for resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, Paul clearly says we are mortal; it is we who are resurrected, not our bodies, our bodies return to dust.
Some use 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 as saying it means when we die, we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. The question we should ask is when we will be absent from this body. If we are open, the Scriptures tell us that it is when we are resurrected, that happens when Jesus returns, we will be gathered unto Jesus here on earth, and we shall ever be with our Lord. We meet Him in the air, welcoming Him back. The Greek word translated meet is apantesis, meaning a going-out to greet an arriving, emphasizing their importance, stressing welcome, honor, and accompaniment.
Continuing on with scripture and verse you have referenced about John.
John the Baptist's role is to present Christ to Israel within the framework of prophecy, yet his words carry foreshadows that later unfold in Paul's revelation of the mystery. In John 1:7-9, John comes to bear witness of the Light, pointing Israel to their promised Messiah. This ministry is clearly part of Israel's prophetic program ( Isa. 9:2; Mal. 3:1). Yet the phrase "that all men through him might believe" hints at a wider purpose, though not explained in that time. Gentile inclusion would remain unrevealed until Paul received the dispensation of grace ( Eph. 3:2-6).
In John 1:11-13, Christ "came unto his own, and his own received him not." Israel as a nation largely rejected Him, but a believing remnant received Him by faith and were given authority to become sons of God. This aligns with Israel's covenant hope, not yet the "new creation" Paul later describes in 2 Corinthians 5:17. The rejection, however, sets the stage for salvation to be sent to the Gentiles through Paul's distinct apostleship ( Rom. 11:11-12).
In John 1:29, John identifies Jesus as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Israel expected a sacrificial Lamb to cover their sins ( Isa. 53), but the Spirit expands John's words to point beyond Israel. The phrase "of the world" foreshadows the universal reconciliation later made known through Paul: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses" ( 2 Cor. 5:19).
Dispensationally, John introduces the Messiah to Israel as their long-promised King, while unknowingly echoing truths that would later be fully revealed through Paul-the gospel of grace, Jew and Gentile made one body, and salvation offered freely apart from law.
The Judgment Seat of Christ (bma) is the tribunal for the Body of Christ, described in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. It is not about condemnation, for believers are secure in Christ ( Rom. 8:1). Instead, it evaluates works, motives, and service, with rewards or loss of rewards ( 1 Cor. 3:11-15). Every member of the Body, sealed by the Spirit, will appear there after the rapture. Unbelievers will not; their judgment comes later at the Great White Throne ( Rev. 20:11-15).
By what standard will this judgment occur? Paul declares it is "by Jesus Christ according to my gospel" ( Rom. 2:16). Not the Law, not the Sermon on the Mount, nor the gospel of the kingdom, but the revelation of grace given to Paul ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 3:2-9). Salvation is not in question; it is a matter of reward based on faithfulness to the gospel of grace.
Israel's prophetic remnant, however, is distinct. This group represents the faithful within Israel's covenant program, foreseen by Isaiah ( Isa. 10:20-22) and Paul ( Rom. 11:5). They believed in Jesus as Messiah and endured, awaiting the promised earthly kingdom. Their judgment is not at the bma but when Christ returns to earth, separating sheep from goats ( Matt. 25:31-34). Their inheritance is earthly-the land and kingdom under Messiah's reign, in line with the prophets and the New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34; Zech. 14:16).
By contrast, believing Israel in this dispensation refers to Jews who trusted Paul's gospel. They are placed into the Body of Christ, receiving a heavenly inheritance ( Eph. 2:6-7). They are judged at the bma along with Gentile believers, not as part of the kingdom remnant.
In sum:
Body of Christ (Jew & Gentile who believe Paul's gospel) Judged at the bma, heavenly hope.
Prophetic remnant of Israel Judged at Christ's return to earth, earthly kingdom.
"For our sake he made him who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
James 1:14-15
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desire and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
Calvinism relies on telling a few clever lies to convince their followers of their distorted teaching. The Bible itself refutes their ideology in the following examples:
Did Jesus die for all, yes or no?
1 John 2:2 says YES
John 3:16 says YES
1 Timothy 2:4-6 says YES
2 Corinthians 5:14 says YES
Romans 10:13 says YES
1 John 4:14 says YES
But Calvinists say NO
Scripture saying Jesus did NOT die for all:
[none]
The Word of God says Jesus died for "all" and the "whole world" and "everyone" in those verses above. All means all, and the whole world means the whole world, and everyone means everyone. But cult teachings will try to twist this and say all does NOT mean all, and the whole world does NOT mean the whole world, and everyone does NOT mean everyone. It's like the serpent in the Garden of Eden who said you shall NOT surely die. It's obvious who is on what side by how they either affirm or denounce the scripture.
Those who disobey and intentionally deceive others from the truth put themselves in grave danger of God's wrath.
The 2nd big lie told by some is that people don't have freewill to do anything whatsoever. Some contradict themselves by saying they still sin but isn't their fault, while others say they don't sin at all and are perfect like Jesus, an obvious lie that 1 John 1:8 makes clear. Verses like Joshua 24:15 that say for you to choose (Calvinists deny this means you're not choosing) or for you to open the door (Calvinists deny this means you're opening the door) Revelation 3:20 , John 7:17.
The biggest lie I hear many say about others- they claim others are trying to EARN their own salvation. That lie is straight from Satan. They know its a lie but will spread it anyway. They know that 99% of Christians believe in grace and believe it is a gift, not earned. But just because they believe God gave them a gift of choice like Joshua 24:15 says, they suddenly claim their motives are to "earn" heaven. So dishonest. Beware of wolves!
Hello Aleicia. I think that you were looking at and referring to Revelation chapters 2 and 3, where Jesus speaks concerning those seven Church congregations in Asia Minor (now modern Turkey). To each of them, Jesus says, "I know thy works" and then goes on in praise and condemnation of most of them. And later in the Book ( Revelation 20:11-13) we see God's Judgement pronounced upon those who rejected God and His Son, revealed in "the books" that declared "their works", which of course were works that resulted from their sinful condition, of no eternal value - only harsh judgement.
But in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, when Jesus speaks about those Churches, these of course are Christians who have truly repented and followed Jesus in their lives and the works they produced were the acts resulting from their faith. So, they were in the most part commended (except the Laodiceans) in their faith & works therefrom, but failed in some other areas. And what this means to us is, what we do in our new lives that God has given us through His Son, must be acts that are produced from a new, active, vibrant faith in God. And this faith can only come from Him, by His Spirit in us. If anything that is done apart from this, however good & useful that might be, are not the result of 'faith in action', or to say it in another way, 'our acts have been done from motives other than Holy Spirit inspired and generated'. Jesus was looking for such works in them (led by the Spirit) and in us as well and we need to be alert and careful that we allow God's Spirit to govern every area of our lives. At the Bema Seat (the judgement of believers' works: 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) is the only judgement that believers will face - and this judgement is not whether we're saved or not (our sins were judged at the Cross), but how we have lived our lives & the works produced from it.
First of all precious Joyce, know that I will be praying for you.
There is one thing that you need to know and one thing that you need to do.
First, know that we are not our own, but we are bought with a price. Your worth is not in yourself alone, but in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags. It ain't about us....it's all about Him!
Second, it's sounds like you need to be surrounded with the Word of God. So, read the Word, even out loud, as much as possible. There is power in it and in Isaiah 55:11, it says that it will not return void. When you can't read, then put on the audio of the Bible in your home, even when sleeping. The book of Psalms is very encouraging. Start with it and ask God to show you where to go next.
I pray that you will be able to completely surrender every part of your being to Jesus and allow Him to heal your wounds. He really cares for you. I, also, pray that you will find a Bible believing church where you can grow in the Lord and get the fellowship and preaching that you need.
My understanding of Reconciliation refers to God restoring the broken relationship between Himself and humanity caused by sin. Because of sin, humanity was separated from God ( Isaiah 59:2). Through Jesus' death, this barrier is removed, and peace is established. As 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 explains, God reconciled us to Himself through Christ, no longer counting our sins against us. This means the relationship is healed and restored.
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
Justification is God's legal declaration that a sinner is righteous because of faith in Jesus Christ. It is the act where God credits Christ's righteousness to us, not because of our works, but by grace through faith. Romans 3:23-24 teaches that all have sinned but are justified freely by God's grace through Jesus. Romans 5:1 states that being justified brings peace with God and salvation. Justification secures our right standing with God and guarantees eternal life.
In summary: Reconciliation restores relationship, forgiveness removes sin's guilt, and justification legally declares us righteous and saves us through faith in Christ's work on the cross.
Here's a summary of that passage (which is from 2 Corinthians 5:15-21):
Because Christ died for all, those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died and rose again. We no longer view people only by worldly standards, even though we once knew Christ in that way. Anyone united with Christ becomes a new creation-old things pass away and everything becomes new. God has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation: sharing the message that God, through Christ, has restored the world to Himself by not counting people's sins against them.
I mean, think about it. Your sins were forgiven before you were ever born.
The New Testament reveals that the Church, the Body of Christ, has a heavenly calling and destiny, distinct from Israel's earthly kingdom hope. While it doesn't say in one verse, "the Church is going to heaven," Paul's epistles clearly show that our citizenship, position, and eternal home are in heaven.
In Philippians 3:20, Paul says, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour." This points directly to the believer's true home being heavenly, not earthly. Similarly, Colossians 3:1-2 tells believers to seek those things which are above, because Christ, who is our life, is there. Our focus is heavenly because that is where our eternal life and inheritance are secured.
Ephesians 2:6 explains that we are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," meaning our position in Christ is established in heaven, even though we currently live on earth. This aligns with 2 Corinthians 5:1, which promises that if our earthly body is dissolved, "we have a building of God eternal in the heavens." The believer looks forward to being clothed with a glorified, heavenly body.
At the rapture, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Church will be "caught up... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Since Christ is currently in heaven, and we will be forever with Him, this implies a heavenly destiny for the Church.
These scriptures collectively show that the Church is not promised a place in Israel's earthly kingdom, but rather has a heavenly inheritance, being part of a new creation in Christ. Paul's unique revelation of the mystery ( Eph. 3:1-11) includes this distinction. The Church is not waiting for a kingdom to come to earth, but for Christ to take us to where He is-in heaven.
Still it's not possible to mix the kingdom message meant for the 12 Tribes of Israel with the mystery message to the body of Christ the Church.
According to the New Testament, the Church, the Body of Christ will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Greek: Bma), and that judgment will be based on the gospel committed to Paul - what he calls "my gospel."
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ
Romans 14:10
"for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
This judgment is not for salvation, but for reward or loss of reward ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15). It applies only to believers - the Body of Christ.
2. What Gospel Will Be the Standard?
Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Here, Paul states plainly that God will judge according to his gospel - the gospel of grace revealed to him ( Gal. 1:11-12).
3. What Is "Paul's Gospel"?
Paul's gospel is centered on:
Salvation by grace through faith, without works ( Eph. 2:8-9)
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as the basis of salvation ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The heavenly calling and spiritual blessings in Christ ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20)
Conclusion
At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Church - the Body of Christ - will be judged:
Not by the Law of Moses
Not by the Gospel of the Kingdom ( Matt. 4:23; Gal. 2:7)
But "according to Paul's gospel" - the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24)
This judgment evaluates how believers lived and served in response to the grace they received, not whether they are saved. Salvation is secure ( Rom. 8:1), but rewards are at stake ( 1 Cor. 3:14-15).
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
Follows a brief explanation to support the my answer.
That is because Jesus will come to judge His own. The fact of He be the Judge of the Christians shows that there is judgment reserved for the believers, and not a condemnation automatic to the hell.
If we go to automatic to this point of reasoning and debate that occurring.
I will leave for who has more theology, but 2 verses of the Theological Base,
The Scripture affirms that:
"For it is necessary that all of us appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive according to the good or the bad that he may have done through the body."
- 2 Corinthians 5:10
In other words, even the saved Christians will be judged, not for eternal condemnation, but for giving of account. It is the Bma, the judgment seat of evaluation of the works of the saved. That implies that:
Even if there be sin and fall, the judgment of Christ separates what is true from the false.
The judgment is not automatic or "impersonal", but done by the One who died for us.
Besides that:
"The Lord knows the who are His"
- 2 Timothy 2:19
Jesus disciplines His children, and if someone is truly born again, even if fall gravely, will be treated with justice, mercy and correction. The lack of repentance visible may indicate that never there was true regeneration, but only God knows the heart.
Therefore, we must not presume automatically the eternal destiny of anyone, for only Christ is worthy to open the book and judge rightly ( Revelation 5:9).
The concept of total depravity; of course is an attempt to find a definition that fits best the admittedly appalling condition of the human heart as seen in Jeremiah 17:9. Whether we banter about decrying our hopeless condition because of a doctrinal assent of the situation or it is because the love of God constrains us ( 2 Corinthians 5:14) may sound the same on the outside; but it makes all the difference in reaching lost souls in the inside. One only needs to grasp Isaiah 6:5 and other verses on those prophets that saw God's presence and glory to see that this is a default reaction for all men to have. The world at large; of course scanters off in fear; or as Revelation 6:15-17.
Many today are shielded and have a temporary reprieve; as it were who hang around Christians; whether professing faith or not.
The going may be good for now; not to mention having people around who can help out in a pinch; but once the Bride of Christ is raptured; no such protection will continue to exist.
Another concept I'd like to hammer home is that in regard to Predestination (and I have said this before) it is not so much what we do but the reasons for doing it. The world no doubt is enamored with those who give a lot to the poor; and who are influential and everyone seems to live by their own standards but conforms to what is acceptable which reminds us of the Pharisees in Luke 16:15. The Lord did say they would praise God for our good works ( Matthew 5:16). Since He also mentions in the beatitudes blessing those who curse us in the same chapter in verse 44 as well as in Luke's rendition we certainly don't expect praise for the reason we do things but for external actions by some; although in theory those in the body of Christ should recognize such attributes but those who are Godly usually aren't the prominent ones in the Church even genuine works. There are many who make a sideshow for greedy gain ( 1 Tim. 6:10)
c. (cont'd). Or, maybe the illustration that Jesus gave in Luke 12:42-48 is what some might believe are grades of punishment to sinners - the LORD God is always Just in all His doings.
d. Those of Israel who had not the redemptive of Work of Christ done for them as yet, were required to be obedient to God's Commands, fulfil the sacrifices which stayed God's Wrath from them and to await the coming full sacrifice of the Son of God. When they were obedient, this demonstrated a real faith in God's Word to them and God's Work for them. So in Hebrews chapter 11, we see a great number of men and women commended for their faith & martyrs' death, "these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" ( Hebrews 11:39,40). Both the OT & NT saints will be judged on the same basis: Faith (the one group looking forward to Calvary & the other looking back).
e. There are various beliefs as to when God's Judgements are given, at death or sometime after. From my reading of the Word, I believe there is an immediate judgement for all who die, whose spirit must leave this lifeless body. Jesus gave the account of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus at their respective deaths ( Luke 16:19-31). Here, Jesus (under the OT economy) showed the suffering of the one who lived carelessly & heartlessly in hades & the beggar who struggled to live, but given a place beside Abraham. This appears to be a temporary residence & punishment awaiting further judgement. For the believer post-Cross, our sins have already been judged & we have walked carefully before the LORD. Our only other judgement is given in 2 Corinthians 5:10, otherwise called the "Bema Seat Judgement". Here, our salvation is not in judgement (that was already accomplished at Calvary), but how we have lived this new life & used our gifts for the Lord. To Page 3.
Faith is not dependent on evidences and proofs; it is purely a gift from God, irrespective of merit, intelligence or education. 1 Corinthians 2:5 ..That your faith should not stand (be) in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It is natural to doubt. Even Apostle Thomas had doubts; he could not believe the other disciples until he had personal experience of the resurrected Christ! Personally, I do not think that Thomas believed after examining the crucifixion scar on Jesus' body; there were no marks at all, for a resurrected body cannot have blemishes and marks of the past. Jesus was only interacting with his human nature and raising him to the higher level of faith by referring to his words of unbelief. Thomas, then approached Jesus NOT to verify the crucifixion marks, but to confess him as his Lord! John 20: John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. I think, IF Thomas had searched His body for proof, he would have got disappointed! But Jesus did not let him fail; He wanted Thomas to believe in Him without seeing: That is Faith. (continued)
Hello Rhern53. All human beings have a body, which houses the soul and spirit. We get a clear picture of this in 1 Thessalonans 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", where the Apostle Paul used these terms to refer to the whole person at Christ's coming.
There can be various understandings of the soul and spirit (their presence and function), but I believe that we are essentially spirit beings housed in a body of flesh, so that we can live, procreate and enjoy what God has given us on Earth. So, people who do not believe in the God of Heaven & His Christ Whom He has sent as our Sacrifice, are still exactly the same as those of us who have been adopted into God's family through His Son. But the only difference between them and us, is that their spirit is not engaged by God's Spirit; whereas for us who are believers, we are born again (made new) by God's Spirit Who has done this work in us and now resides within us & ministers to us - to and through our revived human spirit.
Unbelievers don't have this continual ministry by God in them, rather God's Spirit will work outside of them to bring those who will be saved to hear the Gospel, understand it, and be convicted of their sin, and so receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. So, the spirit of man and the Spirit of God are very different and the unbeliever's spirit remains unregenerate causing him to live according to his own will and desires. But if God's Spirit would indwell them, giving them rebirth, then they become new and no longer fulfilling their own lusts & desires, but made alive to please Him, He Who purchased them ( 2 Corinthians 5:15,17).
Almighty God, Righteous Father, and Eternal Protector,
In the mighty and matchless Name of Jesus Christ, I come boldly before Your throne on behalf of my unborn grandchild-this precious life formed by Your hand, destined by Your plan.
Lord, I stand in the gap and place this child under the covenant protection of the blood of Jesus Christ. I plead the blood of Jesus over their body, soul, and spirit. I lift this prayer as a legal declaration in the courts of Heaven:
Every generational curse, pattern, or spirit from Jack and his family line is hereby broken, nullified, and renounced.
I speak to the spirit of control, manipulation, rage, abuse, addiction, mental torment, perversion, fear, shame, narcissism, and idolatry. You will not pass through this womb. You will not touch this child. Your assignment is canceled by the blood of Jesus.
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us." - Galatians 3:13
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent." - Ezekiel 18:20
I sever the bloodline connection in the spirit. Though DNA may connect to Jack's household, I declare: this child's spiritual inheritance comes from the Kingdom of God alone.
They are grafted into the line of righteousness, not destruction.
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away." - 2 Corinthians 5:17
"You, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, You are the potter; we are all the work of Your hand." - Isaiah 64:8
Father, I declare divine health over this baby's physical body. No sickness, defect, or hereditary disorder shall pass through Jack's line into this child. I command healing and holy development at every stage of growth.
I declare emotional covering and soul-rest from the womb.
This child will not absorb the spirit of rejection, fear, rage, or torment that plagued Jack's household. They will be nurtured in love, truth, peace, and wholeness.
In Christianity, the belief in the immortality of the soul has been influenced by ancient Greek philosophy, especially the teachings of two notable philosophers, Socrates and Plato. This philosophy views death as the separation of the soul from the body. Plato described the body as a prison for the soul and saw death as a means of freeing the soul.
This philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second-third century, some saying the good souls go to heaven, but the bad souls go to hell. Augustine of Hippo, a theologian and philosopher who was made a saint, held this philosophy, strongly influencing the doctrines in the church in the fourth and early fifth centuries, and later John Calvin taught it.
Some interpret 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 to mean that when we die, we go to be present with the Lord. This interpretation is also linked to Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, this is not dependent on salvation, all human spirits, regardless if the person is saved or not, return to God because the spirit in man comes from God, Job 32:8, Zachariah 12:1.
The soul: The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal, but in Ezekiel 18:20, all souls are God's, and the soul that sinneth shall die, in Matthew 10:28, hell is the Word Gehenna which refers to the Lake of Fire. As written in the Bible, in Genesis 2:7, when God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and with the breath of life from God, Adam became a living soul, that is all of Adam, the complete identity of Adam, including consciousness, desires, and emotions.
When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, and he became a living soul/being. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, which means a breathing creature, not a spiritual entity. It can describe a person's soul, life, mind, will, and even our body, not one thing, but the whole of the person, the true self. 1 Peter 3:20, eight souls were saved. Acts 2:43, Romans 13:1
The Scriptures deny the legitimacy of the Shroud of Turin.
-- John 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
The Shroud is a one piece woven cloth, Christ was not bury in a one piece linen cloth. His head was wraped in a separate "napkin" and was laid apart from the the burial shourd.
-- John 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Lazarus was also buried the same.
-- 2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
With the Holy Spirit within us, we no longer live according to our sinful nature. We recognize that the flesh is inherently corrupt, so there's no need to judge or understand someone based on their outward, physical self-instead, we should connect with them on a spiritual level. God doesn't focus on the flesh, and neither should we. When sharing the gospel with those who are lost, their carnal side will always resist it. That's why we must appeal to their inner spirit, witnessing to that part of them and guiding them away from worldly desires.
Jesus didn't resurrect in a physical body but in a glorified, spiritual one. As believers filled with the Spirit, we eagerly await our own spiritual bodies. Though we haven't received them yet, we're already transformed-we're not who we once
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
This verse apparently involves judging someone's character on outside appearances; but I think it gives us an idea how to approach this subject. Our proclivities when on earth of course are character traits which all men; saved and unsaved represent as to our familiarity and memories of them; with their eternal state nonetheless reflecting the condition of their soul (redeemed or unregenerate).
This verse also mentions Christ; and many have tried to portray His image (not a good idea in regard to the 1st Commandment where we are told not to make an image of anything and worship it). If the Shroud of Turin is legitimate (which seems undeniable); then it is interesting how it isn't worshipped as an icon; but we see many icons or in reality idols representing Christ and Biblical characters which are "venerated" as to their sainthood.
As believers we need to get beyond nostalgia and such because what is important is the eternal and redeemed state of a person in Christ and their individual part in the whole Body of Christ which focuses on His righteousness where we will serve; rule and reign with Him for all eternity. We all will; if proven faithful be rewarded with crowns which will represent our authority and place in the Kingdom.
We can look to David's mention of the child who died with Bathsheeba as he looked forward to going to him someday. We can look to Moses and Elijah who appeared before Christ at the Transfiguration and see the focus of the discussion was centered on Christ; clearly He had communed with them already in the past so that this was just the time and place for fulfillment of things they were already given informed about with intimate fellowship in heaven. (I would say Elijah hasn't died and is one of the 2 last day witnesses).
Hope this helps somewhat.
RP
I feel that it comes down to personal preference and what our financial resources allow. Even though following the general biblical pattern of burial is the preferred, there would have been many Jews, Gentiles, Christians and others through the ages who for various reasons were burned and not buried. As well, many, even today, would be unable to afford a burial, since many more expenses are involved than what folk would have had to bear in earlier days.
As much as it is a difficult question to answer for someone else, ultimately, the Lord takes the spirit & soul of the deceased (to Himself or relegated to hell) regardless of the condition or even existence of a body. I think that 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 is helpful in this regard, as the Apostle Paul writes about God giving us a new body, even when the old one lies in the earth or exists no more. So, what's important to us now, is that we know for sure that we are saved through faith in Jesus' Sacrifice & we will be with Him at our death; then what happens to our lifeless remains on Earth (whether buried or cremated), God will take care of that in His Own way. I hope this helps you in some way to be confident in this matter. Blessings.
So, those 'Judgement' verses that apply to believers can be found in: Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, the 'Bema' Judgement; 1 Corinthians 9:24,25, aiming for the prize (Crowns) at the end of our race; 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, we no longer face God's Wrath, whether in the Great Tribulation or before His Throne, for our sins have been judged; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, the product (or, works) resulting from our salvation will be put to the test: some will receive rewards, others will be saved but their worthless works perish and they lose out. Just a few verses that immediately come to mind that hopefully will help you.
Works Come After Salvation
But Paul goes on immediately in the next verse: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10).
Works are not the root of salvation, but they are the fruit of salvation.
The Spirit of God produces love, service, and obedience in the believer's life ( Galatians 5:22-23; Titus 3:8).
Works are a demonstration of faith, not the basis of it.
The Right Perspective
Works should follow after salvation. But they do not secure salvation, nor do they keep it. They simply manifest the new life we already have in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17).
We are not saved by good works, but we are saved unto good works.
"saved unto good works" is a short phrase with a lot of depth.
1. The Source of Salvation
When Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, he's setting the foundation:
We contribute nothing to earn salvation.
It's God's gift, given freely because of Christ's finished work on the cross.
2. The Purpose of Salvation
Right after that, Paul explains in Ephesians 2:10:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
This means that once God saves us, He also equips us for a new kind of life - a life that reflects His grace, truth, and righteousness.
"Unto good works" means we are saved for the purpose of living out the good things God intended.
3. The Role of Good Works
Not the cause, but the result: Works don't save us, but they are the evidence that we are saved ( Romans 6:4; Titus 3:8).
Spirit-enabled, not self-made: The works are produced as the Spirit lives through us ( Galatians 2:20; Philippians 2:13).
Witness to others: Good works demonstrate Christ's life in us to a watching world ( Matthew 5:16; Philippians 2:15).
The last question, are we saved by grace alone or Grace plus works?
G&P
Forgiveness and salvation, while related, are not the same. Scripture shows that forgiveness was granted at the cross nearly 2,000 years ago when Christ bore the sins of the world ( 2 Cor. 5:19). That forgiveness, extended once for all, does not in itself give eternal life. Salvation unto justification comes only through believing the gospel. Romans 5:18 declares that justification unto eternal life is distinct from forgiveness, and it is received through faith.
The gospel Paul preached ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4) is clear: Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, He was buried, and He rose again the third day. In His death He bore our sins, in His burial He put them away, and in His resurrection He rose without them. Faith in this finished work is the only response God requires. Forgiveness already belongs to God; salvation is His gift, received when we believe.
Upon belief, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption ( Eph. 1:13-14). This seal guarantees eternal security-we cannot lose salvation because it is not ours to keep, but God's to preserve. Likewise, the forgiveness secured at Calvary cannot be undone. God does not revoke what He has freely given for Christ's sake.
2 Corinthians 5:14-21 explains that through Christ's substitutionary death, God reconciled the world to Himself, no longer imputing trespasses. Those who believe become new creatures in Christ, made righteous in Him. As ambassadors, we now proclaim this word of reconciliation. The call is urgent: "Now is the day of salvation" ( 2 Cor. 6:2).
Therefore, forgiveness was accomplished at the cross, but justification unto eternal life is only received when one believes the gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Faith alone makes salvation certain, unshakable, and eternal.
(Justification) "No other subject is as important as this one"
Grace and Peace
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2nd Cor. 5:19
2 Corinthians 5:19 teaches that in Christ, God reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing (counting) people's sins against them. This reconciliation is complete, covering sins of the past, the present, and even those of the future, because Christ's sacrifice was once for all.
Past Sins: The believer's past life of sin has been fully forgiven through Christ's blood. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" ( Colossians 2:13). God does not hold a believer's former life of sin against them: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus" ( 1 Corinthians 6:11).
Present Sins: As believers still live in the flesh, we sometimes stumble, yet Christ's sacrifice continually avails for us. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" ( 1 John 2:1). His righteousness is always applied to us: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" ( Romans 4:8).
Future Sins: Because Christ's sacrifice was once for all, even future sins are covered. "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" ( Hebrews 10:12). This does not encourage sin but assures us that no sin can separate us from God's love. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life nor things present, nor things to come shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" ( Romans 8:38-39).
Any thoughts?
Thank you. I agree, it is interesting, and some topics may never reveal the full truth. As Paul said, with milk and meat, we may not be ready to understand everything, 1 Corinthians 3:2. We share our understanding out of respect for each other, hoping to inspire prayer and study for the truth.
Can we understand Enoch being translated so he wouldn't see death? How does this fit with Romans 5:12, which says death passed upon all men because all have sinned; Romans 5:14, which states death reigned from Adam to Moses; and Hebrews 9:27, which says it is appointed unto men once to die?
Then there's Jesus saying in John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven." I have my thoughts, but I keep them in my head. There are things God has not revealed, and we must accept this, as in Deuteronomy 29:29.
2 Corinthians 5:9, like Enoch, teaches us that it is by faith we must live, regardless of what we see. Paul confidently states that he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. When are we absent from this body? Many believe it's when this body dies, but I feel this idea is influenced by Greek philosophy about the immortal soul.
To me, Scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, says we are raised, not descending; it says we are changed, not rejoined. It says we are mortal and will put on immortality, that's something we did not have before. When we are resurrected, we put on immortality. This is our victory over death and the grave, given to us through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree, we are to be overcomers. Revelation 3:5, Jesus said, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
God bless,
RLW
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
Just something to consider about your post on what Paul was teaching, "deceased believers were already in Heaven and that at His Coming, Jesus would bring them with Him and their bodies buried in the earth would join with their spirits. So, the believers should be assured that God had not forgotten those who were in their graves at His Coming, since they were very much alive with Him & together would join with those living believers on Earth".
I would ask, are we mortal beings or immortal beings? Saying that believers are in heaven and very much alive is saying we are eternal beings, or that our spirit or soul is immortal. If we look at Ecclesiastes 12:7, this applies to all of mankind, whether they are believers or the evilest person who has ever lived. All spirits return to God.
James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead". Adam was not a living soul/being until God breathed into him the breath of life, Genesis 2:7. This is the spirit of life that God gives to all living, and the part of us that God communicates with us, Proverbs 20:27, 2 Corinthians 2:13, and when we die, there is no more communication; we wait for resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, Paul clearly says we are mortal; it is we who are resurrected, not our bodies, our bodies return to dust.
Some use 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 as saying it means when we die, we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. The question we should ask is when we will be absent from this body. If we are open, the Scriptures tell us that it is when we are resurrected, that happens when Jesus returns, we will be gathered unto Jesus here on earth, and we shall ever be with our Lord. We meet Him in the air, welcoming Him back. The Greek word translated meet is apantesis, meaning a going-out to greet an arriving, emphasizing their importance, stressing welcome, honor, and accompaniment.
Thanks, brother,
God bless,
RLW
John the Baptist's role is to present Christ to Israel within the framework of prophecy, yet his words carry foreshadows that later unfold in Paul's revelation of the mystery. In John 1:7-9, John comes to bear witness of the Light, pointing Israel to their promised Messiah. This ministry is clearly part of Israel's prophetic program ( Isa. 9:2; Mal. 3:1). Yet the phrase "that all men through him might believe" hints at a wider purpose, though not explained in that time. Gentile inclusion would remain unrevealed until Paul received the dispensation of grace ( Eph. 3:2-6).
In John 1:11-13, Christ "came unto his own, and his own received him not." Israel as a nation largely rejected Him, but a believing remnant received Him by faith and were given authority to become sons of God. This aligns with Israel's covenant hope, not yet the "new creation" Paul later describes in 2 Corinthians 5:17. The rejection, however, sets the stage for salvation to be sent to the Gentiles through Paul's distinct apostleship ( Rom. 11:11-12).
In John 1:29, John identifies Jesus as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Israel expected a sacrificial Lamb to cover their sins ( Isa. 53), but the Spirit expands John's words to point beyond Israel. The phrase "of the world" foreshadows the universal reconciliation later made known through Paul: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses" ( 2 Cor. 5:19).
Dispensationally, John introduces the Messiah to Israel as their long-promised King, while unknowingly echoing truths that would later be fully revealed through Paul-the gospel of grace, Jew and Gentile made one body, and salvation offered freely apart from law.
a. Jesus Christ's perfect Sacrifice, once and for all people. 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 10:9,10.
b. We have been justified, declared not guilty, by that Sacrifice and faith in Him. Romans 5:1,2.
c. God has imputed Christ's Righteousness in us, making us holy. Romans 4:22-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21.
d. God has adopted us into His family, never to abandon us. Ephesians 1:5, Galatians 4:5,6.
Hope this helps.
How all will be judged!
The Judgment Seat of Christ (bma) is the tribunal for the Body of Christ, described in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. It is not about condemnation, for believers are secure in Christ ( Rom. 8:1). Instead, it evaluates works, motives, and service, with rewards or loss of rewards ( 1 Cor. 3:11-15). Every member of the Body, sealed by the Spirit, will appear there after the rapture. Unbelievers will not; their judgment comes later at the Great White Throne ( Rev. 20:11-15).
By what standard will this judgment occur? Paul declares it is "by Jesus Christ according to my gospel" ( Rom. 2:16). Not the Law, not the Sermon on the Mount, nor the gospel of the kingdom, but the revelation of grace given to Paul ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 3:2-9). Salvation is not in question; it is a matter of reward based on faithfulness to the gospel of grace.
Israel's prophetic remnant, however, is distinct. This group represents the faithful within Israel's covenant program, foreseen by Isaiah ( Isa. 10:20-22) and Paul ( Rom. 11:5). They believed in Jesus as Messiah and endured, awaiting the promised earthly kingdom. Their judgment is not at the bma but when Christ returns to earth, separating sheep from goats ( Matt. 25:31-34). Their inheritance is earthly-the land and kingdom under Messiah's reign, in line with the prophets and the New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34; Zech. 14:16).
By contrast, believing Israel in this dispensation refers to Jews who trusted Paul's gospel. They are placed into the Body of Christ, receiving a heavenly inheritance ( Eph. 2:6-7). They are judged at the bma along with Gentile believers, not as part of the kingdom remnant.
In sum:
Body of Christ (Jew & Gentile who believe Paul's gospel) Judged at the bma, heavenly hope.
Prophetic remnant of Israel Judged at Christ's return to earth, earthly kingdom.
Unbelievers Judged at the Great White Throne.
Grace and Peace.
"For our sake he made him who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
James 1:14-15
"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desire and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."
Meditation for my the coming years.
God Bless Yours.
Did Jesus die for all, yes or no?
1 John 2:2 says YES
John 3:16 says YES
1 Timothy 2:4-6 says YES
2 Corinthians 5:14 says YES
Romans 10:13 says YES
1 John 4:14 says YES
But Calvinists say NO
Scripture saying Jesus did NOT die for all:
[none]
The Word of God says Jesus died for "all" and the "whole world" and "everyone" in those verses above. All means all, and the whole world means the whole world, and everyone means everyone. But cult teachings will try to twist this and say all does NOT mean all, and the whole world does NOT mean the whole world, and everyone does NOT mean everyone. It's like the serpent in the Garden of Eden who said you shall NOT surely die. It's obvious who is on what side by how they either affirm or denounce the scripture.
Those who disobey and intentionally deceive others from the truth put themselves in grave danger of God's wrath.
The 2nd big lie told by some is that people don't have freewill to do anything whatsoever. Some contradict themselves by saying they still sin but isn't their fault, while others say they don't sin at all and are perfect like Jesus, an obvious lie that 1 John 1:8 makes clear. Verses like Joshua 24:15 that say for you to choose (Calvinists deny this means you're not choosing) or for you to open the door (Calvinists deny this means you're opening the door) Revelation 3:20 , John 7:17.
The biggest lie I hear many say about others- they claim others are trying to EARN their own salvation. That lie is straight from Satan. They know its a lie but will spread it anyway. They know that 99% of Christians believe in grace and believe it is a gift, not earned. But just because they believe God gave them a gift of choice like Joshua 24:15 says, they suddenly claim their motives are to "earn" heaven. So dishonest. Beware of wolves!
But in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, when Jesus speaks about those Churches, these of course are Christians who have truly repented and followed Jesus in their lives and the works they produced were the acts resulting from their faith. So, they were in the most part commended (except the Laodiceans) in their faith & works therefrom, but failed in some other areas. And what this means to us is, what we do in our new lives that God has given us through His Son, must be acts that are produced from a new, active, vibrant faith in God. And this faith can only come from Him, by His Spirit in us. If anything that is done apart from this, however good & useful that might be, are not the result of 'faith in action', or to say it in another way, 'our acts have been done from motives other than Holy Spirit inspired and generated'. Jesus was looking for such works in them (led by the Spirit) and in us as well and we need to be alert and careful that we allow God's Spirit to govern every area of our lives. At the Bema Seat (the judgement of believers' works: 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) is the only judgement that believers will face - and this judgement is not whether we're saved or not (our sins were judged at the Cross), but how we have lived our lives & the works produced from it.
There is one thing that you need to know and one thing that you need to do.
First, know that we are not our own, but we are bought with a price. Your worth is not in yourself alone, but in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags. It ain't about us....it's all about Him!
Second, it's sounds like you need to be surrounded with the Word of God. So, read the Word, even out loud, as much as possible. There is power in it and in Isaiah 55:11, it says that it will not return void. When you can't read, then put on the audio of the Bible in your home, even when sleeping. The book of Psalms is very encouraging. Start with it and ask God to show you where to go next.
I pray that you will be able to completely surrender every part of your being to Jesus and allow Him to heal your wounds. He really cares for you. I, also, pray that you will find a Bible believing church where you can grow in the Lord and get the fellowship and preaching that you need.
In Jesus name
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
Justification is God's legal declaration that a sinner is righteous because of faith in Jesus Christ. It is the act where God credits Christ's righteousness to us, not because of our works, but by grace through faith. Romans 3:23-24 teaches that all have sinned but are justified freely by God's grace through Jesus. Romans 5:1 states that being justified brings peace with God and salvation. Justification secures our right standing with God and guarantees eternal life.
In summary: Reconciliation restores relationship, forgiveness removes sin's guilt, and justification legally declares us righteous and saves us through faith in Christ's work on the cross.
Because Christ died for all, those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died and rose again. We no longer view people only by worldly standards, even though we once knew Christ in that way. Anyone united with Christ becomes a new creation-old things pass away and everything becomes new. God has reconciled us to Himself through Christ and entrusted us with the ministry of reconciliation: sharing the message that God, through Christ, has restored the world to Himself by not counting people's sins against them.
I mean, think about it. Your sins were forgiven before you were ever born.
Now that is good news.
The New Testament reveals that the Church, the Body of Christ, has a heavenly calling and destiny, distinct from Israel's earthly kingdom hope. While it doesn't say in one verse, "the Church is going to heaven," Paul's epistles clearly show that our citizenship, position, and eternal home are in heaven.
In Philippians 3:20, Paul says, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour." This points directly to the believer's true home being heavenly, not earthly. Similarly, Colossians 3:1-2 tells believers to seek those things which are above, because Christ, who is our life, is there. Our focus is heavenly because that is where our eternal life and inheritance are secured.
Ephesians 2:6 explains that we are already spiritually "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," meaning our position in Christ is established in heaven, even though we currently live on earth. This aligns with 2 Corinthians 5:1, which promises that if our earthly body is dissolved, "we have a building of God eternal in the heavens." The believer looks forward to being clothed with a glorified, heavenly body.
At the rapture, described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, the Church will be "caught up... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Since Christ is currently in heaven, and we will be forever with Him, this implies a heavenly destiny for the Church.
These scriptures collectively show that the Church is not promised a place in Israel's earthly kingdom, but rather has a heavenly inheritance, being part of a new creation in Christ. Paul's unique revelation of the mystery ( Eph. 3:1-11) includes this distinction. The Church is not waiting for a kingdom to come to earth, but for Christ to take us to where He is-in heaven.
Still it's not possible to mix the kingdom message meant for the 12 Tribes of Israel with the mystery message to the body of Christ the Church.
" 2nd Timothy 2:15"
Thus says the scripture...
According to the New Testament, the Church, the Body of Christ will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Greek: Bma), and that judgment will be based on the gospel committed to Paul - what he calls "my gospel."
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ
Romans 14:10
"for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
This judgment is not for salvation, but for reward or loss of reward ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15). It applies only to believers - the Body of Christ.
2. What Gospel Will Be the Standard?
Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Here, Paul states plainly that God will judge according to his gospel - the gospel of grace revealed to him ( Gal. 1:11-12).
3. What Is "Paul's Gospel"?
Paul's gospel is centered on:
Salvation by grace through faith, without works ( Eph. 2:8-9)
The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as the basis of salvation ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The heavenly calling and spiritual blessings in Christ ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20)
Conclusion
At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Church - the Body of Christ - will be judged:
Not by the Law of Moses
Not by the Gospel of the Kingdom ( Matt. 4:23; Gal. 2:7)
But "according to Paul's gospel" - the gospel of the grace of God ( Acts 20:24)
This judgment evaluates how believers lived and served in response to the grace they received, not whether they are saved. Salvation is secure ( Rom. 8:1), but rewards are at stake ( 1 Cor. 3:14-15).
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
THINK ABOUT IT!
not imputing their trespasses unto them
not imputing their trespasses unto them
not imputing their trespasses unto them
Follows a brief explanation to support the my answer.
That is because Jesus will come to judge His own. The fact of He be the Judge of the Christians shows that there is judgment reserved for the believers, and not a condemnation automatic to the hell.
If we go to automatic to this point of reasoning and debate that occurring.
I will leave for who has more theology, but 2 verses of the Theological Base,
The Scripture affirms that:
"For it is necessary that all of us appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive according to the good or the bad that he may have done through the body."
- 2 Corinthians 5:10
In other words, even the saved Christians will be judged, not for eternal condemnation, but for giving of account. It is the Bma, the judgment seat of evaluation of the works of the saved. That implies that:
Even if there be sin and fall, the judgment of Christ separates what is true from the false.
The judgment is not automatic or "impersonal", but done by the One who died for us.
Besides that:
"The Lord knows the who are His"
- 2 Timothy 2:19
Jesus disciplines His children, and if someone is truly born again, even if fall gravely, will be treated with justice, mercy and correction. The lack of repentance visible may indicate that never there was true regeneration, but only God knows the heart.
Therefore, we must not presume automatically the eternal destiny of anyone, for only Christ is worthy to open the book and judge rightly ( Revelation 5:9).
The concept of total depravity; of course is an attempt to find a definition that fits best the admittedly appalling condition of the human heart as seen in Jeremiah 17:9. Whether we banter about decrying our hopeless condition because of a doctrinal assent of the situation or it is because the love of God constrains us ( 2 Corinthians 5:14) may sound the same on the outside; but it makes all the difference in reaching lost souls in the inside. One only needs to grasp Isaiah 6:5 and other verses on those prophets that saw God's presence and glory to see that this is a default reaction for all men to have. The world at large; of course scanters off in fear; or as Revelation 6:15-17.
Many today are shielded and have a temporary reprieve; as it were who hang around Christians; whether professing faith or not.
The going may be good for now; not to mention having people around who can help out in a pinch; but once the Bride of Christ is raptured; no such protection will continue to exist.
Another concept I'd like to hammer home is that in regard to Predestination (and I have said this before) it is not so much what we do but the reasons for doing it. The world no doubt is enamored with those who give a lot to the poor; and who are influential and everyone seems to live by their own standards but conforms to what is acceptable which reminds us of the Pharisees in Luke 16:15. The Lord did say they would praise God for our good works ( Matthew 5:16). Since He also mentions in the beatitudes blessing those who curse us in the same chapter in verse 44 as well as in Luke's rendition we certainly don't expect praise for the reason we do things but for external actions by some; although in theory those in the body of Christ should recognize such attributes but those who are Godly usually aren't the prominent ones in the Church even genuine works. There are many who make a sideshow for greedy gain ( 1 Tim. 6:10)
c. (cont'd). Or, maybe the illustration that Jesus gave in Luke 12:42-48 is what some might believe are grades of punishment to sinners - the LORD God is always Just in all His doings.
d. Those of Israel who had not the redemptive of Work of Christ done for them as yet, were required to be obedient to God's Commands, fulfil the sacrifices which stayed God's Wrath from them and to await the coming full sacrifice of the Son of God. When they were obedient, this demonstrated a real faith in God's Word to them and God's Work for them. So in Hebrews chapter 11, we see a great number of men and women commended for their faith & martyrs' death, "these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" ( Hebrews 11:39,40). Both the OT & NT saints will be judged on the same basis: Faith (the one group looking forward to Calvary & the other looking back).
e. There are various beliefs as to when God's Judgements are given, at death or sometime after. From my reading of the Word, I believe there is an immediate judgement for all who die, whose spirit must leave this lifeless body. Jesus gave the account of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus at their respective deaths ( Luke 16:19-31). Here, Jesus (under the OT economy) showed the suffering of the one who lived carelessly & heartlessly in hades & the beggar who struggled to live, but given a place beside Abraham. This appears to be a temporary residence & punishment awaiting further judgement. For the believer post-Cross, our sins have already been judged & we have walked carefully before the LORD. Our only other judgement is given in 2 Corinthians 5:10, otherwise called the "Bema Seat Judgement". Here, our salvation is not in judgement (that was already accomplished at Calvary), but how we have lived this new life & used our gifts for the Lord. To Page 3.
Faith is not dependent on evidences and proofs; it is purely a gift from God, irrespective of merit, intelligence or education. 1 Corinthians 2:5 ..That your faith should not stand (be) in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It is natural to doubt. Even Apostle Thomas had doubts; he could not believe the other disciples until he had personal experience of the resurrected Christ! Personally, I do not think that Thomas believed after examining the crucifixion scar on Jesus' body; there were no marks at all, for a resurrected body cannot have blemishes and marks of the past. Jesus was only interacting with his human nature and raising him to the higher level of faith by referring to his words of unbelief. Thomas, then approached Jesus NOT to verify the crucifixion marks, but to confess him as his Lord! John 20: John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. I think, IF Thomas had searched His body for proof, he would have got disappointed! But Jesus did not let him fail; He wanted Thomas to believe in Him without seeing: That is Faith. (continued)
There can be various understandings of the soul and spirit (their presence and function), but I believe that we are essentially spirit beings housed in a body of flesh, so that we can live, procreate and enjoy what God has given us on Earth. So, people who do not believe in the God of Heaven & His Christ Whom He has sent as our Sacrifice, are still exactly the same as those of us who have been adopted into God's family through His Son. But the only difference between them and us, is that their spirit is not engaged by God's Spirit; whereas for us who are believers, we are born again (made new) by God's Spirit Who has done this work in us and now resides within us & ministers to us - to and through our revived human spirit.
Unbelievers don't have this continual ministry by God in them, rather God's Spirit will work outside of them to bring those who will be saved to hear the Gospel, understand it, and be convicted of their sin, and so receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. So, the spirit of man and the Spirit of God are very different and the unbeliever's spirit remains unregenerate causing him to live according to his own will and desires. But if God's Spirit would indwell them, giving them rebirth, then they become new and no longer fulfilling their own lusts & desires, but made alive to please Him, He Who purchased them ( 2 Corinthians 5:15,17).
In the mighty and matchless Name of Jesus Christ, I come boldly before Your throne on behalf of my unborn grandchild-this precious life formed by Your hand, destined by Your plan.
Lord, I stand in the gap and place this child under the covenant protection of the blood of Jesus Christ. I plead the blood of Jesus over their body, soul, and spirit. I lift this prayer as a legal declaration in the courts of Heaven:
Every generational curse, pattern, or spirit from Jack and his family line is hereby broken, nullified, and renounced.
I speak to the spirit of control, manipulation, rage, abuse, addiction, mental torment, perversion, fear, shame, narcissism, and idolatry. You will not pass through this womb. You will not touch this child. Your assignment is canceled by the blood of Jesus.
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us." - Galatians 3:13
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent." - Ezekiel 18:20
I sever the bloodline connection in the spirit. Though DNA may connect to Jack's household, I declare: this child's spiritual inheritance comes from the Kingdom of God alone.
They are grafted into the line of righteousness, not destruction.
"If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away." - 2 Corinthians 5:17
"You, Lord, are our Father. We are the clay, You are the potter; we are all the work of Your hand." - Isaiah 64:8
Father, I declare divine health over this baby's physical body. No sickness, defect, or hereditary disorder shall pass through Jack's line into this child. I command healing and holy development at every stage of growth.
I declare emotional covering and soul-rest from the womb.
This child will not absorb the spirit of rejection, fear, rage, or torment that plagued Jack's household. They will be nurtured in love, truth, peace, and wholeness.
I declare spiritual identity over this child.
Part 1
In Christianity, the belief in the immortality of the soul has been influenced by ancient Greek philosophy, especially the teachings of two notable philosophers, Socrates and Plato. This philosophy views death as the separation of the soul from the body. Plato described the body as a prison for the soul and saw death as a means of freeing the soul.
This philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second-third century, some saying the good souls go to heaven, but the bad souls go to hell. Augustine of Hippo, a theologian and philosopher who was made a saint, held this philosophy, strongly influencing the doctrines in the church in the fourth and early fifth centuries, and later John Calvin taught it.
Some interpret 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 to mean that when we die, we go to be present with the Lord. This interpretation is also linked to Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, this is not dependent on salvation, all human spirits, regardless if the person is saved or not, return to God because the spirit in man comes from God, Job 32:8, Zachariah 12:1.
The soul: The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal, but in Ezekiel 18:20, all souls are God's, and the soul that sinneth shall die, in Matthew 10:28, hell is the Word Gehenna which refers to the Lake of Fire. As written in the Bible, in Genesis 2:7, when God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground and with the breath of life from God, Adam became a living soul, that is all of Adam, the complete identity of Adam, including consciousness, desires, and emotions.
When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, and he became a living soul/being. The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh, which means a breathing creature, not a spiritual entity. It can describe a person's soul, life, mind, will, and even our body, not one thing, but the whole of the person, the true self. 1 Peter 3:20, eight souls were saved. Acts 2:43, Romans 13:1
See part 2