Daniel
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You stated;
These seven weeks can be WEEKS OF DAYS and we know from Bible history that the years in rebuilding the holy city were very much so troublesome times. 62 more years after these seven WEEKS OF DAYS makes 69 weeks. At the end of the 69th week the Messiah came and was cut off mid-week in the 70th week.
I have ALL the 70 weeks as weeks of years, starting and ending on a specific day.
Beginning at "FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT to restore and to build Jerusalem.
and ending at "unto the Messiah the Prince/King when Jesus "PRESENTED HIMSELF" as king
Full filing Zachariah 9:9
and a portion of Genesis 49:9-11.
"Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; AND UNTO HIM SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE.
BINDING HIS FOAL UNTO THE VINE, AND HIS ASS'S COLT unto the choice vine;..
Daniel 9:26 says AND AFTER THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS SHALL MESSIAH BE CUT OFF.
( It doesn't say in the middle of the 70th week. )
Daniel 9:27 Say the prince that SHALL COME he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
That is the beginning of the 70th week.
( the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, )
That's yet future.
God bless you brother.
This scripture is the beginning of how some Amillennialism thinking Christians meditate on where we might be in time.
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25 KJV
It was a very important time in Jewish history as they were carried into Babylon and by God's great Providence set free by Cyrus the King. His decree was momentous. By interpreting the seven weeks separate from the three score and two weeks as it is written it is a special period of time standing alone. These seven weeks can be weeks of days and we know from Bible history that the years in rebuilding the holy city were very much so troublesome times. 62 more years after these seven weeks of days makes 69 weeks. At the end of the 69th week the Messiah came and was cut off mid-week in the 70th week. The transgression being full in the 70th week. Approximately 3-1/2 weeks (37 years?) later in the spring was the beginning of destruction of the holy city which ended in the fall.
Part of this great mystery involves Herod the Great and he wanting to protect his kingdom and power and the spirit that enabled him was an antichrist spirit.
There are many scriptures that can point to this viewpoint with keeping all of the Gospel teachings without violence.
Thank you for the discussion!
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions and he answered them in verse 15.
Verses 4-14 would be non signs of the end of the world. He says that in verse 6. "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
And then he goes on with the beginning of these sorrows as mentioned in Matthew 24:8 until he gets to verses 14 and15.
Vs 14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Vs 15. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by "DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
WHOSO READETH, LET HIM UNDERSTAND!!:
Jesus is diverting them back to Daniel 9:27 as the key to end time prophecy. The 70th week of Daniel.
"And he/Antichrist shall confirm the covenant with many FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,)
The Great tribulation begins in the middle of the 70th week with Jesus describing Daniels prophecy as the key and details this event in Matthew 24:16-21.
Daniel 12:9-11 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE set up, there shall be a (thousand two hundred and ninety days). 3.5 years!
Also see Revelation 12:14.
( time, and times, and half a time,)
Another way of saying 3.5 years!
The 70th week of Daniel is future.
God bless.
Weeks of years and weeks of days is key.
"Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers." Matthew 23:32 KJV
We believe in a risen Christ!
Gabriel delivered a message to Daniel that in time they (Israel) would finish the transgression. Jesus knew this time and spoke to the Jews that they (the same generation) would finish the measure of the fathers. In Gabriel's message both the people and the holy city would be affected by the determined time, seventy weeks.The pronouncement broke the seventy weeks down in parts. In a way the seventy years of captivity was the latter days for the Jews. From the decree of king Cyrus the seventy weeks began. First seven weeks of years in unsettled times of building back their nation as recorded in Ezra and Jeremiah. Daniel 9:26 states the Messiah will be cut off at 62 weeks. 62 weeks plus the seven weeks would "unto the Messiah" being cut off.
69 weeks not 70?
Daniel 9:27 says "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" this is the seventieth week or else the phrase "unto the Messiah" makes little sense.
In the middle of the 27th verse of Daniel, in the middle of the week the Messiah "shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease"
In the 70th week Jesus began His ministry of preaching the Gospel "confirmed the covenant with many". Three and one half years later, He was cut off by the crucification. When the Messiah was cutoff after delivering the New Covenant while the Old Covenant ceased at the same time in the middle part of the 70th week. For about forty years from the time of the crucification to the destruction of Jerusalem which began around the same time of the year was a period of Grace for the Jews to repent and be of the first born of God's Holy Church. This period of time completes the 70 weeks. Both verses 9:26 and 27 speak of this last time.
The times of the Gentiles began at this time.
No doubt a repeated theme; it seems prescient to once again drive home the point that "peace and security" will be the mantra bringing in the Antichrist to launching his campaign to take over the world. ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The "bloodless coup" which Revelation 6:1 seems to indicate will be accompanied by a man of intrigue understanding "dark sentences" ( Daniel 8:23). That verse is also packed with the description of all world rulers at the peak of corruption at the time this event occurs. These verses indicate occult origins; which the reader will note was prevalent particularly with Adolf Hitler in World War two.
No doubt like a chameleon this man will be able to give an appearance that will appeal to men of all audiences. As to the amount of success he will have with his military resume before this time is somewhat speculative; it would seem from Daniel 7:8 that his description as the "little horn" means that he comes from relative obsurity; then suddenly starts controlling the world scene. The Abraham accords which encompass dividing the land for gain ( Dan. 11:39) through massive economic payments and redistribution certainly seem like they will be the catalyst or at least one major component of the Daniel 9:27 confirming of this covenant.
Just how he will pull off explaining the Resurrection of the dead and the Rapture is subject to speculation. It is also uncertain exactly when the first seal event occurs; it seems that it could be immediately after the Rapture; but perhaps there will be a time of transition beforehand just to alleviate the inevitable chaos; if indeed my eschatological view is correct on the Pre-Trib rapture.
Resistance on a human level based on the previous scriptural references clearly is going to be futile (see also Rev. 13:4). No doubt the full power will come after the assassination and possession (I contend with the angel from the abyss Rev. 9:11.)
see Zech 11:17.
Part 1
Did not know it was Messiah the King in Dan. 9:25, whether that would matter, we know He is King.
I have enjoyed this discussion because of its importance not on salvation but for those who will be living when the end starts. This 70th week, if it is in the future or if it has been fulfilled in the past makes a world of difference in what people are expecting to happen.
If the 70th week is in the future there will be the 7-year pre, mid, or post-tribulation as taught, but if it has been fulfilled in the past that would make that false. What outcome would that have on those who are here?
Daniels people, the lost sheep of Israel, Matt. 10:5-6 did not reject Him, it was the corrupt rulers of Jerusalem and the temple, Luke 16:14-15 whose eyes were blinded and Jesus cried over it Luke 19:39-44. Many of them believed in Him but would not confess Him, John 12:42. Jesus the Messiah had to be cut off/sacrificed, Psalm 22:16-18 Isaiah 53:8-12 to atone for sins, Dan. 9:26.
If the priests and leaders of Jerusalem had received Jesus as their Messiah and had not conspired with the Romans to crucify Him, there would be no atonement sacrifice for the salvation of the Jews first and also to the Greek/Gentiles, it was God's plan.
Daniel 9:25-27 is a precise prediction of when Jesus would come and be anointed. In the scripture from Matthew to Acts 8:4-5, there is strong evidence without assumption of a 7-year amount of time from the anointing of Jesus the Messiah and His 3.5-year ministry/confirming the covenant to the lost sheep of Israel, Daniel's people.
His crucifixion in the middle and 3.5 more years the gospel was to only the lost sheep, Daniel's people by Jesus through His apostles, thousands were saved, then the death of Stephen, and the gospel going to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous, the branch broke off, but still offered to the Jews.
See Part 2
Part 1.
Sorry for such a delay. In Daniel 9:25 "Messiah the Prince"
What I was saying is it actually SAYS Messiah the king.
I didn't mean to say it's translated king from prince.
On Daniel 9:24-25. I agree with you when you say "These 6 things were determined upon Daniel's people, the lost sheep of Israel, and the holy city, Jerusalem. That's true!
Now here is where we disagree on Daniel 9:24-25. Seventy weeks are determined "UPON THY PEOPLE and upon thy holy city, DANIELS PEOPLE!
These six things wasn't accomplished for Daniels people at the cross because"Daniels people" rejected Jesus as savior.
Daniels people transgression and sin is specific.
They denied their king and savior who came at the appointed time!
This is what Hosea 5:15 is talking about.
"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
This is also what Jesus is saying in Matthew 23:39. "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".
Of course they saw him again.
What Jesus is saying here is they won't behold him as a nation again until they say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!
That affliction will come in the 70th week.
When they turn to him then will those 6 things for "Daniels people" be accomplished.
Here is what I have as the middle of the 70th week. Revelation 13:4-5 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months".
In Matthew 24:3 When Jesus pointed his Desciples to Daniel 9 he was answering 2 of the 3 questions they asked him. "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world.
See pt 2.
Part 1
Just to finish up on the Last Week. Sorry, this is so long but I hope you will have all the reasons for my understanding of this very important prophecy. I have learned much.
I know we differ on this and I believe we both respect each other as brothers and the truth is what matters. The word prince in vs 25 is the same as in vs. 26 it is the Hebrew word nagiyd or nagid meaning chief commander, leader, ruler, or prince, but never translated as king, but many times as the commander of a military.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks, 490 years are given for the things that are determined to be accomplished that is the prophecy. 1. To finish the transgression. 2 To make an end of sins. 3 to make reconciliation for iniquity. 4 to bring in everlasting righteousness. 5 To seal up vision and prophecy. 6 To anoint the most holy.
These 6 things were determined upon Daniel's people, the lost sheep of Israel, and the holy city, Jerusalem. Were these things accomplished when Jesus first came, or will they be accomplished after Jesus second coming? These six things are the purpose of the prophecy, Dan. 9:24.
My understanding Jesus accomplished this when He first came. The 70 weeks which is 490 years are given for these 6 things to be accomplished.
1 To finish the transgression. From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law, rebellion. Isaiah 53:5,8 Isaiah 53:11 Hebrews 9:15-18.
Jesus with a perfect life gave up his body to death; he fulfilled the first covenant of law and redeeming of the transgressions under the first covenant of law. He became sin for us, and with his blood made the new covenant being the only mediator of the New Testament that we through faith in Jesus Christ receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Offered first to the house of Israel then offered to the rest of the world.
See part 2
Part 3.
Jesus by His blood entered once into the holy place not made by hands having obtained eternal redemption everlasting, never to fade, and in Jesus, we have everlasting righteousness and salvation, through faith, given by grace from God, by the blood of the Lamb freely offered for us. To look for everlasting righteousness to be brought in the future is to deny the work of Christ, which he claimed was finished. We have no righteousness apart from Jesus Christ.
5 To seal up vision and prophecy; seal up, affix a seal, a seal in biblical times as today, is used to guarantee security, or indicate ownership, fulfill a vision of God's communication with man, prophecy w-n-, the same word for prophet, the word of God given to us through a prophet. The greatest prediction, which runs through the whole Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 John 6:27 Mark 1:14-15 Acts 3:18 John 5:36-40 Matthew 11:11-15 Romans 3:21.
All through the New Testament, it shows the fulfillment of the prophets and the law; fulfilled on the cross at Calvary. Gabriel was sent to help Daniel understand the matter, and consider the vision.
6 To anoint the Most Holy. Anoint, the theological meaning of mashach to smear, anoint. The Most Holy qa-da-sm qo-des, most holy, most holy place, Set apart from the rest for a special function. This was done by Jesus after he ascended to heaven before the destruction of the temple made by man. It is the anointing of the holy of holies in the temple not made with hands. Hebrews 8:1-12 Hebrews 9:6-14
Jesus went in once and anointed the Holy of Holies not made with hands. Jesus anointed the Holy of Holies once and made it possible for man through him and the Holy Spirit to enter the most holy and God can dwell in us. When Jesus cried out and said it was finished and gave up the ghost, the veil of the temple rent in half.
See Part 4
Part 4
The service in the temple made by hands was over as Jesus told the woman at the well, John 4:21-24. Soon in that generation, it would be physically gone and never be again. The animal sacrifices that never covered sin ended on the cross, the whole Levitical priesthood and sacrificial shadow service, Hebrews 7:11-13. Only the Messiah Himself could legitimately abolish once and forever the system of symbols that pointed forward to the atoning self-sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God.
This was the cause of the sacrifices and oblations to cease in Dan 9:27. This unveils one of the most profound and decisive revelations of the Messiah's mission, the very goal, the things determined by the seventy-weeks prophecy, God's will, the work Jesus was sent to do John 5:36 John 17:54-6 the sixfold goal of Daniel 9:24.
In vs. 26 after 69 weeks the Messiah is cut off, which after means it is in the 70th week. The people of the prince that shall come are the judgment of God not in these 70 weeks. This connection between the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of the city is the crucial message of Daniel 9:26, 27. They had 490 years to be ready and accept their Messiah and the people of the prince that shall come is the outcome of Jerusalem's rejection of her Messiah.
Jesus related the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 to Israel's final refusal to accept Him as her Messiah, Matt. 21:33-44 Matt. 23:37-38; Luke 19:41-44. The abomination Jesus was referring to in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 was not to the future but to their near future when the Roman army would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple in their generation Luke 21:20-24.
See Part 5
I do know people who hold to the viewpoint I and Ronald have spoken about Daniel 9.
Let me state again, I believe that Daniel 9 tells of the first coming of Christ, not the second, and that Jesus is the Prince, Messiah, spoken of in Daniel 9:25 an d the 'prince that is to come' in verse 26 is the Roman Emperor and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. In Matthew 24:15, I believe that Jesus' reference to Daniel's prophecy was to the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D. also. (this verse refers back to verses 1-2 began the discourse).
But I also think that Jesus was speaking of the last times in this discourse, as well in some verses.
As to what I have stated in the past, Steven, I must say that as I study on this topic more and more, my views have changed. I am in the process of learning and my understanding is developing. So, please offer me grace to in this. Let's instead speak about our understanding of the passages at hand and not pick apart one another's thinking. I would love to hear you tell us your understanding. I will respect your thinking even if I may disagree with it.
As to being premillennial dispensational or historic, preterist, post millennial, or amillennial. I lean more towards the amillennial viewpoint the more I study. I do have some preterist understanding of this topic of Daniel, but am not totally preterist, either. I don't think we necessarily need to stand fully in one view over another as we are in the process of learning.
I do believe that Jesus took the throne of David at the right hand of the Father after His ascension to heaven. He received all authority and dominion from the Father and is reigning as our King and Priest now in heaven. He reigns over both heaven and earth, as He is Lord of all creation. I believer He will come again in glory to resurrect everyone, judge everyone, defeat all of His enemies, and determine every person's eternal estate at that time.
From your discussions with brother Ronald, I have tried to place Christ in that verse & read it as he shared. However, it just doesn't fit there given what is written before & after. As far as what was revealed to Daniel, the Messiah will be cut off (i.e. die). Daniel doesn't know anymore about Him. So everything after the death of the Messiah, the texts given must then refer to "the prince that shall come", the people of whom (the Romans) would come first to destroy Jerusalem & the Temple.
Now we're not told when that 'prince' would come, as well we don't have any record of any individual or power confirming (or, affirming) the covenant for seven years in this interim period. This could be the Covenant already in place that Anti-Christ assures Israel will come to force, or even raising his own covenant that aligns with the old giving it sanction. However he implements it, the sacrifices & oblations that have long ceased, he will reinstate, but mid-way in his rule, he will renege on it. Not just disallowing it, but he will desecrate the Temple with his own abominations. And the mention of 'abominations' in Daniel, have always applied to wicked acts & never to Christ (e.g. Daniel 11:31: ref to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, and Daniel 12:11: again to the Anti-Christ, where the Jewish sacrifices are removed & the abomination set up). But Daniel wanted to know more ( Daniel 12:8,9), but all was sealed till revealed at the end.
If this was Jesus in v27, when did he forcefully remove the sacrificial system? The Jews continued to sacrifice after His death & resurrection.
Thanks for joining the discussion!
Ronald blessed me with the opportunity to pick up on a subject I started a month or so ago.
I didn't think you would be interested but I remember you said you was looking forward to reading it.
While we have you engaged can you offer your time chart for the 70th week as well using Daniel 9:24-27?
I hope others join in, this may turn out fruitful.
Looking forward to hearing your point of view.
God bless.
Part 2.
In Daniel 9:25. the Messiah the Prince should be translated Messiah the King. That is how its read in Hebrew.
Johns' baptism had nothing to do with him being king.
Here are other issues I have with your timeline.
Daniel 9:25 is the end of the 69th week.
According to you guys timeline, these are consecutive weeks.
So according to that,
Here is the beginning of the seventh week- Daniel 9:26. (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off!)
Can you see right away there is an issue with that timeline you gave?
You guys put the beginning of the 70th week in your timeline at the baptism.
If you all want to be consistent according to this belief Daniel's 70 weeks is consecutive, according to vs 26 the 70th week starts off with the Messiah being cut off. See Daniel 9:26.
The end of the 69th week is the Messiah presented as king.
If Daniels 70th week Prophecy is consecutive the 70th week starts off with him cut off. (According to the way some have it)
Let's address Part 2 of you reply.
You said Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week.
Let's go back to Daniel 9:26-27 and take it as it is written.
IM HIGHLIGHTING KEYS IN THE ORDER PRESENTED FOR LACK OF SPACE.
Daniel 9:26.....(and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...);
So, after the 69th week on into the 70th week we have the Messiah cut off but also the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.
(According to anyone that would have these weeks consecutive)
According to your timeline, you have that 38 years later.
If these weeks are consecutive, you have to include this in the 70th week.
However, those 38 years is an interval no matter what view you take.
But you guys don't believe there's an interval at all.
It's getting late, We can continue. perhaps during the week or this weekend.
God bless.
Concerning part 1 of your reply.
Rome destroyed the city.
The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.
I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.
In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.
You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.
But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!
( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,
However, Jesus points this to a end time event.
Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.
Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?
Are we in it or is it future?
If future, can you give me your view chronologically?
This will help me understand where you are coming from.
God bless.
Part 1
Sorry so late of a response!
I will first speak on your 1st question as a springboard to get into this topic concerning the 69th and 70 week of Daniel 9:26-27.
Your quote.
"If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel. End quote.
Ronald, Daniel outlines the sequence of events in the opposite order than what you present in the 69th week. We see the Messiah cut off. But if you look at Verse 26 Carefully " The People of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the sanctuary. This puts his arrival after the destruction of Jerusalem. This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.
This is saying, this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary, but the This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.
PRINCE THAT SHALL COME hasn't come yet.
Let's examine this.
Beginning with Daniel 9:25. This is where the 69 weeks end. We know that by the beginning of vs 26, ( And after threescore and two weeks )
and here's why I place this at his entry into Jerusalem riding a donkey, In Luke 19:37-39 we see the multitude singing, referring to Psalms 118:26. parallel that with Luke 19:38. The Pharisees saw that as blasphemy!
Psalms 118:22-26 is the scope of scope of Daniel's prophecies and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
BUT
They denied there king and here's Jesus answer to that in Matthew 23:37-38.
This is the only time Christ presented himself as king!
See part 2.
The stone wall is mentioned in chapter 3 this is the wall around Jerusalem. We see in the prophecy in Daniel 9:25 The street (open Square) shall be built again and the wall even in troublous times. That is what's going on here. Nehemiah received word that the walls of Jerusalem were broken down and the gates were burnt.
Nehemiah then asked the king if he might go to Jerusalem. The nobles of Judah were whimpering because of all the damage and rubbish, they did not want to rebuild the wall because Samaria and the surrounding countries threatened to attack, they had little to no faith (troublous times). A prayer to God from Nehemiah and the wall and gates went up in 52 days Nehemiah 6:15.
Read Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther covers that time in the return from captivity.
Hope this helps,
God bless,
RLW
We agree on Daniel 9:25-27 is a prophecy about the Messiah/Christ, the temple, Jerusalem, and Daniel's people, but the rest of your reply, our understandings are different, and I would not know how to reply, but to say a prayer for all of us. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for your reply.
I have to disagree with you here.
I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.
But I will look at one aspect of your questions.
Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.
He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?
Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.
Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.
Let's continue.
AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .
This is clearly the prince that shall come.
If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.
Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15
God bless.
'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'
You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.
Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.
e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?
There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.
If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.
No offence at all Jimbob; always glad to share with you. I believe you know the passage well, that which is found in Daniel 9:20-27 & this subject has come up often in these pages over the years.
In my understanding of this passage, the mention of 'weeks' is taken to mean 'weeks of years', i.e. where 'seventy weeks' are seen in verse 24. Then the 'seventy weeks' (or, seventy sevens) equate to 490 years. This then is the basis from which the ensuing dates & events fall out. If you have disagreement on this, or other thoughts, then please read no further as you won't subscribe to any of it.
So, as verse 24 gives us, this full period of 490 years "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" will at its completion, "finish the transgression, make an end of sins...to bring in everlasting righteousness...". And then from Daniel 9:25, we get the timeline of future events (i.e. from Daniel's vantage point & with our limited view & understanding).
a. of the 490 years, 49 years were accomplished: that is, from Artaxerxes commandment (in 445 BC; Nehemiah chap 2 onwards) to 'restore & build Jerusalem' to its accomplishment 49 years later.
b. then after the completion of 49 years & then a further 434 years ("threescore and two weeks") were then fulfilled by the coming of Jesus the Messiah & His Crucifixion.
c. after the 434 years & the death of Jesus, in time (AD 70) "the people of the prince that shall come" (led by Gen Titus of Rome) will desecrate the Temple & destroy Jerusalem.
d. now we have the full completion of 69 weeks (or 483 years of the 490 years prophesied), but one week (7 years) of the seventy weeks remain. Daniel 9:27, "And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". This wasn't Titus or the people of Rome, but these men were the people of the "prince that SHALL COME" (i.e. another coming person that is referred to in verse 27).
Onto Page 2.
Given the paucity of descriptions of what we shall do other than eternally praise; worship and serve Christ we are left to our imaginations in one sense. We also can have the general anticipation of doing all the things (except marriage and procreation) that we do in our earthly bodies now; but without sin and fulfilling an exponentially greater purpose. Many have surmised how we will continually gain in our knowledge; forever work on construction projects (perhaps in all parts of a new universe) and other such things.
Backing up a bit; until that time it seems to me a spurious concept that in heaven time doesn't currently exist. If heaven is a world or planet perhaps things are measured differently (as to the Lord a day is as a thousand years); but nonetheless with all the visions from heaven in the scriptures in Revelation there are specific time frames that mirror the book of Daniel. Truly God is beyond time; and perhaps in new bodies and without sin WE will conceive things differently. God however had His consecrated feasts at specific time intervals; primarily to reflect Christ in the future Passover as sacrifice; in Pentecost for the beginning of the church; etc. Angels such as the one in the story of Daniel 10:13 understood literal days; and the 360 day year was used in the time measurements to show the events to come such as the day Christ was to be crucified 483 years after the decree to build the Temple ( Daniel 9:25).
The dimensions of heaven are clear; but there is no proof it has to be a cube. It could be equidistant on its sides in any shape; really; perhaps shaped as the ancient Temple; or more rectangular with the 12 gates on each side. Just landing that City on earth would destroy things with the gravity of the moon and change the whole appearance of the earth.
As with any other scripture; literal viewpoints should supercede figurative ones unless evidence is clear that it is symbolic.
REVIEWING THE NEW TESTAMENT CONSIDERING PREMILLENNIAL AND AMILLENNIAL VIEW POINTS.
In the previous section I left off discussing the council in Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 15:13-17 and Paul's writings in Romans 11:25.
These verses is concerning what become of Israel and the Covenant promises while the Church age has begun.
This tempts me to revisit the OT and usher in Daniel 9:24-27 at this junction but I will save that for now.
The focus is on Gods future plans for Israel and the timing and location of the Kingdom reign of Christ.
Some call it the Millennium reign or Millennium kingdom which can unfortunately confusing.
Millennium is a Thousand years.
That's just how long Satan will be chained.
Christ reign is everlasting. We must no mistake the Millennium for eternity. There's still sin, chastening and death in the Millennium. Christ rule with a rod of iron. Eternity is entirely different.
The Millennium is a time of testing.
There's a final rebellion by Man after the Devil is loosed for a season.
The statement in Acts 15:13-17 is drawn from Amos 9:11-12 which has been debated.
Amillenarians sought to make this a contradiction of the premillennial point of view.
It seems that "after these things I will return" refers to the return of Christ after the period of Gentile prominence which began in 606 B.C. and is destined to continue until the second coming. It is "after these things" judgment on Israel, their scattering, and discipline that Christ will return and build again the tabernacle or tent of David. The reference to the tent of David does not concern itself with any building but rather with the political power and sway which David had.
Amos 9:14-15 debunks that,
Especially verse 15. "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."
It's bedtime for me.
I will continue at a later time.
God bless.
From henceforth?
This has to be from the time the kingdom starts. by the description given of the kingdom we must admit it hasn't happened yet.
This places it future.
The kingdom consists of the Nation of Israel repenting and acknowledging Christ "who they rejected"
He will sit on David's throne IN JERUSALEM according to the promises and Covenants.
IN THE MEANTIME WHAT HAS BECOME OF THE NATION ISRAEL?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Romans 11:8
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Romans11:11.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans11:25.
How do we consider these verses CONCERNING NATION ISRAEL in Romans 11 and consider the promises and Covenants and the view into the future that Daniel gives us in Daniel 9:24-27?
More to come.
God bless.
Part 2.
Obviously the "EVERLASTING" conditons described in scripture concerning the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.
Scriptures such as Isaiah 51:11 and many others don't exist of yet.
They are certainly back in the land but the wailing wall in Jerusalem reminds me of Matthew 27:25.
Also Matthew 23:38-39 seems to parallel with Hosea 5:15.
Does Israel disobedience void the UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT AND PROMISES?
According to Psalms 89:27-36. NO!
"My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, NOR SUFFER MY FAITHFULNESS TO FAIL.
( This is a marvelous saying! It's God's faithfulness that is on display!!)
MY COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me."
Daniel has much to say about this in Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
See Examining the covenants
Part 2.
God bless.
I feel like a broken record here--or I could say CD but even that is retro nowadays. Anyway the sixth seal shows that everyone is aware of judgments being bought against the world by God and Christ ( Rev. 6:15-17). That hasn't happened yet clearly; and that is a result of course of the martyrs of the 5th Seal and reaping what they sowed in that regard. All the seals are personally opened by Christ and are therefore preceding the book itself being opened. The first seal in fact is judgment read these verses
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Daniel 8:23
Psalm 55:21
Daniel 8:25
Luke 21:35
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Daniel 9:27
So there will then be a time unlike today when there are no atheists; there will be only God and Satan worshippers; although men will worship demons through the trumpet judgments despite knowing the obvious that they are choosing that over the true God and what are increasing intensities of judgments.
More to come.
It is sobering to look at the history of great kingdoms such as Rome and the eventual downfall by corruption within. I have read about many similar events as to today in America that caused Rome to fall; such as many government type handouts; and of course licensiousness sexually. There is even a theory about the verse Luke 17:27 that there may have been same sex unions in the past that is being referred to.
Certainly Sodom and the surrounding cities shows a similar pattern to today. We should take note of Lot there; who decided to settle originally in the fertile plain; allowing appearances with his eyes to be what drove his decision to move there in the first place; while Abraham sought a better country as it were; and had promises not fulfilled in his lifetime through his progeny. The same concept of course brought Moses out of Egypt to wander in the wilderness for 40 years in what should have been a journey of a few months.
The pride that came before the fall of course is a sin associated with sodomy amongst other things. As I alluded to previously; the first seal of Revelation comes before war; famine and pestilence; a false peace confirmed with many according to Daniel 9:27. There has not been a mesmerizing orator since the time of Hitler and perhaps Mousallini in World War two that was able to conquer so quickly; gone are the Napoleans of the past. As Daniel states in chapter 8; verse 23 rulers will become completely wicked in that time when Antichrist; a man of intrigue arises. The one world religion will also promote the one world government. Through peace he shall destroy many ( Daniel 8:25). With world economies dissolving; and the removal of the ancient landmarks ( Prov. 22:28); no doubt he will realign the nations when he "divides the land for gain" ( Dan. 11:39) and that with the help of a "strange god."
Some think we can tough it out in the Tribulation. Let's not be there if we can avoid it!!
Agape.
Not knowing the day or hour is something we must live with. I will preface this segment by saying that it seems there are very few in churches these days proclaiming the Day of the Lord is imminent; let alone the Rapture. Again; as I stated in my last commentary when we assumed 1948 had to be the beginning of the last generation and the Lord hasn't come yet instead of letting that argument die we have kind of assumed that now that the cat is out of the bag that no one cares to discuss what appears to be a glaring contradiction of proper interpretation. The world; however seems far more interested in the end times and what is coming to ;pass than much of the professing church these days from what I can tell.
Today; we have in the Mideast the initial unveiling of a huge facility in Dubai where there is a synagogue; mosque and church and a one world monotheistic religious complex has been started (with Papal blessing). We also are at the edge of our dollar collapsing along with that of many governments; electronic currency and cashless societies already pretty much taken over in India as well as new currencies based on gold in Russia; China and Iran. It would seem from scripture that the final world system may begin with such a currency before heading to the Mark of the Beast.
I have said it before and will repeat that FIRST comes false peace as the first seal in Revelation indicates. We have already seen the "Abraham accords" and that likely will continue to advance until the "covenant with many" is confirmed ( Daniel 9:27). These things must come to pass; as the Rapture as well as the Revelation 4 indicates must occur "after these things."
There are a few who are as the stars in the sky; a few; a remnant who are burdened over all the evil and discuss these things anticipating Christ's return (see Malachi 3). God has a book for those in remembrance who will be raptured out before His judgments come forth. That weknow
Thanks for your reply.
Actually God didn't destroy the temple to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus.
He gave them the Prophets, Moses and signs pointing them to his coming throughout the OT.
That was Johns mission to prepare the way for him that was Prophesied to come.
In Daniel 9:25 Daniel gave them a mathematical prophecy of his coming on the day he was to present himself as king.
He did just that fulfilling Daniels prophecy and Zechariah 9:9.
Jesus held them accountable in Luke 19:41-44 for not acknowledging this.
"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNOWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.
However all this was in God's plan from the beginning.
It wasn't a plan A and B.
The bible clearly tells us the veil will be moved off of Israel heart and they will turn to the Lord.
Everything is going according to Gos design.
God bless.