Discuss Daniel 9 Page 5

Concluding thoughts for now on Rapture and reasons for it; as well as Tribulation saints commentary

My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.

The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.

@Mishael

Advocate 1 John 2:1

Shephard & Bishop of souls I Peter 2:25

Man of sorrows Isa 53.3

Judge Acts 10:42

Faithful and True Witness Rev 3:14

Head of the Church Eph 5:23

Rock 1 Corth 10:4

High Priest Heb 6:20

Master Matt 8:19

Living Water John 4:10

Rose of Sharon Song of Solomon 2:1

Alpha and Omega Rev 22:13

Lamb of God John 1:29 Messiah Daniel 9:25

Mediator I Tim 2:5

Teacher John 3:2

Author and Finisher of our Faith Heb 12:2

Image of the invisible God Col 1:15

Everlasting Father Isa 9:6

The Word John 1:1

Holy One Mark 1:24

Light of the world John 8:12

Lion of the tribe of Judah Rev 5: 5

LORD OF LORDS I Tim 6:15

The Beloved Eph 1:6

Carpenter Mark 6:3 The Almighty Rev 21:

Shiloh Gen 49:10

The Way, the Truth and The Life John 14:16

Bright and Morning Star Rev 22:16

Good Shepherd John 10:11

Son of Man Matt 20:28

Only Begotten Son John 3:16

King Of Kings 1 Tim 6:15

Prince of Peace Isa 9:6

Bridegroom Matt 9:15

Dayspring Luke 1:78

Saviour of the world Eph 5:23

Immanuel Luke 1:78 & Matt 1:23

Wonderful Counselor Isa 9:6

I AM John 8:58

The Door John 10:9

The True Vine John 15:1

King of the Jews Mark 15:26

Prophet Matt 21:11

Redeemer Job 19:25

Saviour Isa 45:15 , John 42:2, 1 Tim 4:10

The Amen Rev 3:14

The Living God

Anchor Heb 6:19

The BRANCH Zech 6:12

Bread of Life John 6:15

The Resurrection & Life John 11.25

The Living God, who is the Saviour of all men,

It certainly can be said as happened say in Germany in the 1930's that family members betraying others has been a repeated theme of persecution; whether with dictatorships; or in many Mideast countries today.

As to the other two things; I will repeat what I've said quite often that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church; but the saints (in general) will be overcome and martyred during the Tribulation which God Himself must cut short or no one would survive. He who restrains must be held back until he is removed (I would contend with the explanation of that being the method in which the Spirit works with the gifts and calling in the current church age). It is certainly not out of the question that as Daniel states "only the wise will understand" that indeed the man of sin may be evident to God's people before he becomes world dictator and perhaps that fits into the "midnight hour" parable as a sign.

The mark of the Beast is something accompanying worship of Satan and the image set up (which people likely will have some technological way to reproduce). If we take the Tribulation in basic chronological order we see seal judgments first; then sealing the 144,000; then after God's 2 prophets minister they are destroyed and resurrected and the false prophet imitates similar miracles such as fire coming down from the sky. I would strongly state that the covenant which is now likely in initial stages will be "confirmed with many" as Daniel 9:27 states. The first seal or false peace is the first delusion sent by God so those who don't LOVE the truth will be damned. That is clearly judgment as all seals are with Christ Himself opening them personally.

I will state that we all must be ready to die for His names' sake; as it is rapidly getting to where all will hate us from all nations and those who think they believe God will think as the scripture states that they are doing HIm a favor by killing us. False religion I believe comes first

(Part-1):

Hello Jimbob,

To answer your first question, I have gone back and read through Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with Verse 1. The first thing I am looking for is who Jesus is speaking to. It tells us in Verse 1 that Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple grounds when the disciples (Peter, James, John, & Andrew) came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. Jesus gives them the prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD.

In Verse 3, these same four disciples probed Jesus with three questions: When shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Now from this point in Verse 3 on to the end of Chapter 24, Jesus gives these four disciples the answers to their three questions. I am trying to find reference to the church with what Jesus is saying, mainly in response to your question on who the ones taken are referring to, but I just cannot see this as being the church.



Jesus begins answering their three questions in Verse 4. He begins by talking about the pains of birth ( Matthew 24:4-14), and then Matthew 24:15 is the pivotal point. Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in Daniel ( Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11). And then we see the perils of tribulation ( Matthew 24:16-28). And the finally, the promise of Jesus' coming in Matthew 24:29-31.

As you probably already have figured out by now, I believe the church is gone already, so no, I do not see Matthew 24:40-41 talking about church members being taken, nor do I see those two verses referring to the rapture of the church. I believe the ones taken are taken into judgment. They are taken to fight against Christ when He returns at His second coming. My reason for believing this comes from Joel 3:1-2, and Zechariah 14:2. From what I see, it is God who gathers these people (the ones taken) into the Valley of Megiddo to face judgement.

Page 1.

Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.

Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:

a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).

c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.

Hello Ronald,

Thank you for sharing this information for my consideration. I have read the account of the 70 AD destruction of the temple. The things Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the inspiration for the Maccabean Revolt.

Some people think that when Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:15 "there shall be an abomination of desolation" is that's what they called it when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, back in 165 B.C., put up his image.



Yeah, it happened once before. But in Matthew, this is a future event, not to be confused with that event. This is something that must happen in the future.

I know this is one of the most debated topics amongst believers, but like you, I am not looking for debate either.

I believe that all prophecy concerning the end time is based on Daniel 9:24-27. I also believe that the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. From what I have read, they are not the same message.

Looking at what Jesus said in Matthew 23:38, I understand that was fulfilled 38 years later in 70 A.D., when Titus the Roman General rode into Jerusalem and killed 1,600,000 Jews. He leveled the city, including the temple, just as Jesus said they would. Why?



Because they rejected their Messiah and even to this day, they no longer do sacrifice. That is because there is only one place that they can sacrifice and it is in Jerusalem, which is why the Jews don't sacrifice today.

But there will come a time in the future when the antichrist arrives on the scene, and he is going to help the Jews rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. And he's going to help them start sacrifices up again. And then right in the middle of the tribulation period, right in the middle of the 70th week, he is going to set up his image in the Holy of holies, and he is going to say that everybody must worship him.

Again, thank you for what you've shared.

God bless!

Brother Ronald.

Part 3.

Matthew 24:32-34.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Israel represents the fig tree in scripture.

Hosea 9:10.

Jeremiah 24:2-3.

Joel 1:7.

This generation is a particular people of this time. (Israel)

Generations is used in that way in scripture as a particular people or Genealogy as seen in Genesis 5:1 and other places.

SO YOU KNOW IT IS NEAR WHEN YOU SEE ISRAEL START TO BLOSOM.

THAT DIDNT HAPPEN IN 70 AD.

Back to Daniel 9:24.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Reconciliation. Jesus done that on the cross, but no one is reconciled until they believe. As a Nation Israel still rejects Christ and will continue until the tribulation. Hosea 5:15, Matthew 23:39.

To finish the transgression. That refers to Israel. Zachariah 12:10 "The last days.

to bring in everlasting righteousness.

To anoint the most Holy. I also believe that's the Holy of holiness. but I believe that is in the Millennium temple that Ezekiel is talking about in the 41st through the 46 chapter.

I will have to leave off here for now Ronald.

God bless.

Brother Ronald.

Part 2.

As I presented my view of a "to the day" accurate 69th weeks, I believe if one holds the view that there is no interval, and these weeks are consecutive. SEVERAL YEARS PAST BEFORE TITUS DESTROYED THE TEMPLE. 70weeks dosent add up.

This brings us to Matthews 23:37-39

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Notice vs 39. "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

Now we know they saw him again so I believe this means to Behold him as a nation. Remember Luke 19:42.

Also see Hosea 5:15. I will go and return to my place, TILL THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR OFFENCE, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

ISRAEL AS A NATION SIN IS THEIR REJECTION.

Paul hammers on this rejection, Blindness, and restoration in Romans 9,10,and 11.

Paul summarizes this very well in Romans 11:25-28.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS, I BELIEVE IT STRENTHENS MY ARGUMENT DANIEL 9:24 HASNT HAPPENED YET.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLYNESS FROM JACOB:

For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching THE ELECTION, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

This hasn't happened yet.

See Part 3.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9

I believe the key to understanding Daniel 9:24-27 is recognizing that God does not have in view in these verses a literal, physical city or temple that was to be built or destroyed. Rather, He has in view the city and the temple which is the body of believers, which was to be build by teaching the law of God. He also has in view the cutting off of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the spiritual city and sanctuary.

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We must always compare scripture with scripture and remember that the Bible is first and foremost The GOSPEL which includes God's Judgement for sin and His Mercy in Salvation. And that God uses types and figures to both reveal and hide Truth. It is not about the political nations of this world which will ultimately be destroyed. It is about the Kingdom of God which is an Eternal Kingdom. And to demonstrate the Glory of God.

Hi Brother Ronald.

Who's the Elect in Mathew 24.

Part 1.

Here is my understanding of the timeline given to Israel in Daniel's people in Daniel 9:24-27 and also how it associates with Matthew 23, Matthew 24. Romans 11 and so on. I might add a few more as I go.



Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

to finish the transgression,

and to make an end of sins,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and to seal up the vision

and prophecy,

and to anoint the most Holy.

I WILL COME BACK TO vs 24.

Daniel 9:25-26 most agree that this was accomplished but what I think what is important to Know is that it was a dated prophecy, and it was precise in its timing. "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

On occasions in the Gospels they tried to make Jesus king but he would give them the slip because his time has not come yet.

On the triumphal entry he arranged and fulfilled the prophecy riding on a donkey. Zechariah 9:9.

This also fulfilled the dated, mathematical prophecy of Daniel 9:25 on the very day. Read Luke 19:30-44.

LISTEN TO THE LORD HERE IN Luke 19:41-44.

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNEWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.

He fulfilled the prophecies, and they rejected their king and was held accountable.

I believe this ends the 69th week.

See Part 2.

Brother S. Spencer. You may have already checked out bro. Giannis' breakdown of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24-27, but thought to mention it here, as those weeks of years are an important timeline to place history from Artaxerxes' authorization for Nehemiah to leave for the purpose of re-building Jerusalem, right up to the crucifixion of Christ. Though, I had a problem in correctly apportioning the years (maybe the year 445 BC that is commonly used as Artaxerxes' command for Nehemiah to depart, is not precise), it seems clear that only 69 of the 70 weeks have been so far fulfilled. I have not been able to find the final week (of seven years) in the Daniel texts. As Giannis stated, Titus did no more than destroy the temple & Jerusalem and this week must point to another time & person still to come (of which Daniel 7:8,24,25,26 refers to).

Hello Spencer

Pt 1

My understanding of Daniel 9:25-27

"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: (7+62+1 )the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Why that time of 490 years is split into 7, 62, and 1 weeks?

7 weeks, 49 years, is the time between the order to rebuilt Jerusalem, her walls and the Temple and its accomplishment.

From that date untill Jesus' crucifixion 62 weeks will pass by, that is 434 years.

1 week the last is the period of antichrist ' rule on earth. But let's go to verses 26-27,

"26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"

Well, here there are two options, the 70th week is EITHER about the time of Jesus' ministry and the destruction of Jerusalem OR antichrist's time.

If it was Jesus' time then additional weeks should have been added since the destruction of Jerusalem was about 40 years later, that is an additional 5-6 weeks. But the prophesy places it in the last week. Also it says that that prince will make a COVENANT with people. Obviously that person was not Titus. Titus didn't make any covenant, he just came, conquered, destroyed and left. So it has to be the antichrist who is going to make a deal with the sinful world and as a sign for that deal he will put his mark, 666, on people.

But why the prophesy separates the last week from the rest?

Thanks Ronald.

I'm sorry it's taking so long between responses. Please bare with me.

I've read over your material on Daniel 9:24 and you say you believe this was fulfilled.

Where do you fit the abominations that make it desolate into your time line?

I believe Daniel 9:24 is the scope of All 70 weeks.

I believe 69 weeks was fulfilled and the 70th week is yet to come.

I also don't hold the view vs 24 has been fulfilled.

Thanks for being patient with me.

God bless.

Hi Jesse,

Not to debate just something to consider.

I know many have this understanding of this abomination of desolation and applying it to Daniel 9:27. As you said it is in Daniel 9:27 Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 and only in 11:31 and 12:11 does it say the abomination that maketh desolate.

As what happened in 167 BC with Antiochus Epiphanies committed two blasphemous acts in the second Jewish temple by setting up an altar to the Greek god Zeus and also, he sacrificed a pig on the altar, and much more, that is thought something similar will happen in the future with the antichrist.

The abomination of desolation is this horrible person or beast that will do this action that is vile, vicious or terrible in the temple that is said to be rebuilt that makes it desolate. This being is the one who does the act to make it desolate.

If we look at Daniel 9:27 it says, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." For the overspreading of abominations, this is saying because of abominations they have done, he shall make it desolate, not what he does makes it desolate.

Jesus disrobes this in Matthew 23:24-37, and He says what we read in Daniel 9:27. Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For their abominations Jesus is the one who makes it desolate for the overspreading of abominations they have done and their rejection of Him. "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The Roman army and total destruction.

I agree they may flee from Judea in the future they did just before 70 AD the believers in Jesus fled to Pella a region across the Jordan river and were saved.

Just something to consider.

God bless,

RLW

Hey S Spencer,

This is part of the study I did on Daniel 9:24-27, the six things, this is as short as I could get it.

Six things determined upon Daniel's people and the holy city.

Part 1

Determined, cut, to divide, hence to decree, to be determined, be decreed, and shall come upon thy people, be settled, be marked out.

To finish, prison a primitive root; to restrict, by an act, hold back or in or word prohibit -- finish, forbid, keep back, refrain, restrain, retain, shut up, be stayed, withhold. Also, can mean the bending or subduing of the will, "tame for the yoke". An animal or land that is tamed has been worked and is complete and ready for use. Taming includes; the construction of holding pens, putting the soil to the plow, and harvesting of the crops.

Determined upon Israel and Jerusalem

1. To finish the transgression

2. To make an end of sins

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity

4. To bring in everlasting righteousness

5. To seal up vision and prophecy 6. To anoint the most holy

This prophecy is determined for Daniel's people, Israel, the lost sheep, and the holy city, Jerusalem. Not the world and the nations of peoples, it is just Israel and the holy city. The six points above are what is determined, and can we verify if they have been fulfilled? None of these were fulfilled in the first sixty-nine weeks so, does scripture show us if these six things that were determined were fulfilled by the Messiah, Jesus?

See Part 2

Six things determined upon Daniel's people and the holy city.

Part 5

To seal up vision and prophecy

Seal up, affix a seal, a seal in biblical times as today, is used to guarantee security or indicate ownership. Vision, God's communication with man, prophecy (w-n-), the same word for prophet, a divine vision, a vision spoken of a divine vision or dream, Isaiah 29:7 God spoke in times past through the prophets, but these last days spoke to us by his Son, Heb. 1:1-2.

The Mosaic Law and covenant pointed to Jesus. He sealed them up, that is, he fulfilled them. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus; and the greatest use of prophecy was to perpetuate faith in his coming and to prepare the world for that event.

Daniel 9:23 John 6:27 Mark 1:14-15 Acts 3:18 John 5:36-40 Matthew 5:17 Matthew 11:11-15

The Bible shows Jesus fulfilled the prophets, and the Mosaic law the first covenant fulfilled, sealed and His ministry was confirming the New.

See Part 6

Six things determined upon Daniel's people and the holy city.

Part 6 last part

To anoint the Most Holy.

Anoint, the meaning of mashach is fourfold. First, an individual or object set apart for divine use, the anointed. Most Holy q--m q-e most holy most holy place.

Some put this at the baptizing of Jesus by John the Baptist, the start of Jesus's ministry.

Matthew4:13-17 Mark 1:9-11 John 1:29-34

This could very well be the anointing in Daniel 9:24. It started Jesus's ministry, and we know he is most holy. There is another choice, which I believe is what is said in Daniel, not in the future, but was done by Jesus after he ascended to heaven before the destruction of the temple made by man. It is the anointing of the holy of holies in the temple not made with hands. Hebrews 8:1-12 Hebrews 9:6-14

With this, it shows Jesus went in once and anointed the Holy of Holies not made with hands. Jesus anointed the Holy of Holies once and made it possible for man through him and the Holy Spirit for God to dwell in us, a tabernacle. If we look at verse 9:8 "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing". Remember when Jesus cried out and said it was finished? He gave up the ghost, the veil of the temple rent in half, and the holy of holies opened to man. Like the tabernacle of David an open tent everyone could see the glory of God.

This is to take however you may, my understanding These were fulfilled.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

It's no need to apologize, it's all in the context,

I just wanted to highlight the focus of the thread so I can present why I feel the elect is Israel in Matthew 24.

I believe Matthew 24:2 was accomplished by the "people" of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26.

I will get back to you soon Ronald with more to share on this.

Thanks and God bless.

Ruth,

Daniel mentions this in three places, Daniel 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11. Jesus mentions it in Matthew 24:15.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in the book of Daniel.

In Matthew 24:16, Jesus gives instructions to the Jews on what to do when they see the abomination of desolation. Whenever those things in Verse 15 happen, Jesus says, let them which be in where? In Judea, because this is for the Jews. He says let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains.

The abomination of desolation is when the antichrist helps the Jews to start their sacrifices again. The bible says he is going to help the Jews to restart their sacrificing.



And then right in the middle of the tribulation period (approximately the 3-1/2 year mark), he is going to step in and put his image in the holy of holies. And he is going to say that everybody has to worship him. And he's going to corrupt the temple. And he's going to take over.



Jesus says that when you see that happen, when he puts up his image in the Holy of holies, He says flee, get out of there, because the great tribulation (the last 3-1/2 years), this pivotal point, is only a one activity event. Once that happens, then it is the great tribulation, like the world has never seen.

Here's something interesting I would like to share with you: In Verse 16, Jesus tells the Jews to flee into the mountains. This is recorded for us in Revelation Chapter 12 Verse 6. Isaiah says it is the Rock city of Petra.

The Jordanians went into the Rock city of Petra not too long ago and fixed it up as a tourist attraction. They put in nice restrooms and everything for the tourists.

As it stands today, the rock city of Petra has enough empty housing to house 250,000 people, plenty of room for the Jews who are told to flee. Maybe God had a hand in this? I'm sure the Jews in the middle of the tribulation period are going to say "thank you very much!"

Gigi.

Part 2.

When answering or friendly debating a doctrine scripture should be used to edify and build up and teach and show but what authority you present your argument.

Let's use your reply to me for an example.

You stated; "Perhaps the Prince is the antichrist or perhaps it was Titus in 70A.D". (Concerning Daniel 9:24-27).

I replied with what I thought was much detail in my view with scripture. (Not to say that it is right)

Your reply to that was.

"S. Spencer, I reread Daniel 9 and I just do not concur that the 70th week has not been fulfilled yet. I think all 70 weeks we fulfilled int he time of Jesus and the fall of Jerusalem. After sincere study of dispensationalism, I am do not adhere to the dispensational viewpoint on the 70 weeks nor to the way they approach Scripture and especially prophecy.

But we each can have our view on this and be at peace as it is not a salvific matter.

Thank you for responding.

You joined the thread, labelled and rejected the viewpoint and provided no scripture and offered no alternative viewpoint.

Then went on another thread and offered no scripture.

You give us your study and research of what you believe the early church taught but not a breakdown of your own work in the scripture.

There is nothing wrong with checking to see what the history of the church thought on doctrine. but as you said they had the bible just like us.

And I say they searched those scriptures and presented their arguments using them.

I hope this doesn't come off offensive.

God bless you.

Hi S Spencer,

I need to apologize, I believe I am going around the context of Israel as the elect in Daniel, and Israel is the elect in Matthew 24. I agree that in Daniel 9, Daniel's people are Israel and not the Church. I took your posts as saying Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24 are both on the end times. Sorry if I was off.

When Jesus came, He came only for the lost sheep of Israel, and after Pentecost, the apostles were still only going to the lost sheep of Israel.

If you could expand on the nation Israel being the elect in Matthew 24. I can reply to part two, but I feel I am missing something, and I am not addressing your context, if that makes sense.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Ronald.

Part 2.

I ended my last reply a little to soon.

By way of review I would like to remind us the context and topic.

1st the title of this post. ISRAEL GODS ELECT.

2nd The elect mentioned in Matthew 24 is Israel not the Church.

3rd The focus on Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 is Israel. Thanks.

In my last post I placed emphasis on the Desciples asking for "signs" of his coming to restore the kingdom and emphasis on the answer the Lord gave them.

(He gave them what they asked for.)

"The signs".

In Acts 1:6 they asked him directly "wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Notice; They wasn't asking for signs this time. ( He has left them and come back and still no Kingdom!)

He answered them in vs 7.

It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

vs 8 he puts them to work building on the foundation he has laid by his death and resurrection. "Church things, Not kingdom.

We're in the interval several days after the 69th week when he was presented as king riding on a donkey. and then crucified as Daniel 9:26 presents.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:"

As I mentioned earlier Jesus points the Desciples to Daniel 9:27 as a sign in Matthew 24:15.

I will leave off here for now until this weekend.

Go's bless

Hi S Spencer,

I understand you are busy with work and your concerns about your brother, so not to rush, not on Daniel, but just a few things to consider about Matthew 24. My understanding of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is twofold, for then, and our future.

The reason is, history tells us the believers in Jesus got out and went to Pella across the Jordan river before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And on the sabbath, today would not matter but then the gates would be locked, and it would be hard to leave.

Matt. 24:3, in Mark, we see it was Peter, James, John, and Andrew that ask Jesus in private. Jesus had just told them the temple would be destroyed and Matthew records "what sign of thy coming and the end of the world." It is easy to jump to they were talking about Jesus' second coming, but.

Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were hidden from them until all was done. Luke 9:44-45 Luke 18:31-34 and after they did not believe He resurrected. Mark 20:9-11 Luke 24:6-8, John 20:9. Even right before He ascended, they were expecting Jesus to set up the kingdom then, Acts 1:6. So why in Matthew 24:3 would we interpret it as if they were asking Jesus about His second coming?

I will send you by this weekend what I have studied on the six things determined in Daniel 9:24 if I can shorten it enough, I do not like to send long posts. If you don't want me to post it let me know.

God bless,

RLW

GiGi;

Daniel 9:25-28

The prince is Christ.

Daniel 9:25 ...now the MESSIAH the PRINCE ......

Daniel 9:26 ....and the people of the PRINCE (Christ) that SHALL COME ----those born again, the New Creation in Christ ....

Daniel 9:28 And he ( Messiah, the prince) shall make a COVENANT with many for ONE WEEK (the week of PASSOVER), and in the midst of the week (of passover) shall he cause the sacrifice and offering TO CEASE, and for the OVERSPREADING of ABOMINATION shall HE MAKE it DESOLATE, even until the consumption, and that DETERMINED ( Joel 2:28) shall be POURED on the DESOLATE.

God Bless YOU!

Hi Gigi.

Yes, some say that but if we examine the text closely it groups Titus with "The People" who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

Let's highlight what the people shall do.

AND THE PEOPLE of the prince that shall come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY; (That's what Titus did.) He's part of the people.

They are the people of the prince that SHALL COME. ( This means after the destruction.) And he haven't come yet.

vs 27 continues on about this prince.

'(AND HE) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

This Parallels the work of the Antichrist in Revelation and Jesus makes reference to this as end times prophecy in Matthew 24:15.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Jesus was answering the questions of the disciples from vs 3.

(And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?)

This puts the work of the prince in Daniel 9 far future.

Daniel 9:24 is the scope of things.

Daniel 9:25 details the 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:26 details the interval. (What's to happen after the 69th week but BEFORE the 70th week.

Daniel 9:27 details the 70th week.

I will elaborate more on this over the weekend.

God bless.

ISRAEL GODS ELECT.

Part 2.

Richard, I was reading the thread you posted and I made a mistake and sent Part 1 to you. I was trying to start a new thread. Sorry.

Daniel 9:24-27.

Seventy weeks are determined upon THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY. This is Israel!

These verses have to be interpreted correctly in order to understand eschatology.

Associate these verses with Mathew 24 and Romans 11:25.

Hosea 2:1-23.

and Acts 15:13-16.

Notice verse 16.

AFTER THIS I WILL RETURN, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

After what?

"The fulness of the Gentiles Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25.

ISRAEL MY ELECT.

Isaiah 45:4.

Part 1.

Romans 2:25-29.

Colossians 3:11-12

and Galatians 3:27-39

These scriptures can trip you up when we use them for doctrine when talking about NATIONAL ISRAEL.

Some day God will open the eyes of Israel to show them that all their services was pointing them through the same door that the Gentiles goes through to get to the father. "CHRIST".

There will be two folds that will come together under one shepherd. There's no advantage to either fold. That's what Colossians 3:11-12 and Galatians 3:27-39 is saying. Angels, People, The Church and Israel is called elect in the Bible.

Israel and the Church has different origins and has a different path and destiny.

( Don't mistake that for having a different path for salvation.)

They have a separate purpose. When Jesus speaks of Israel as his elect in Matthew 24. he speaks of Israel as a nation. National Israel.

The Church isn't National Israel or "The new Israel. Is the Church Jacob also?

They're both are Chosen or elected by God to do the will of God for different purposes.

The bible makes references to both National Israel and the remnant.

Paul makes that distinction in Romans when he says all Israel is not Israel and when he mentions Kinsman of the flesh. Paul hammers away at this in Romans chapters 9,10 and 11.

Daniel 12:1 Speaks of National Israel.

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the ( CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE ): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (THY PEOPLE) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

"Daniels people is not the Church"

See key verses Daniel 9:24-27 in

Part 2.

Jimbob,

To answer your question, yes, I do believe in a pre- tribulation rapture of the church. However, I do not base that belief on Matthew 24:29-31. I base my belief on what I read in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5.

Here's something I think is important to understand about end time prophecy:

All prophecies concerning the last days are based upon Daniel 9:24-27, which presents the 70th week of Daniel. And the 70th week of Daniel is divided into four section:

1) Pains of birth: first 3 years of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:4-14)



2) Pivotal point: the mid-point of the Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:15)



3) Perils of tribulation: the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. ( Matthew 24:16-28)



4) Promise of his coming: the Second Coming of Christ. ( Matthew 24:29-32)

All end time prophecy is centered on the Jewish people.

I can give you my understanding of Matthew 24:29-31, but only if you are interested.

Now I do have a question for you. In one of your posts, you say the elect are not the Jews, but the bride of Christ, the church. But in your current post, you are telling me that the elect are the children of Israel.

Am I missing something here?

2 Chronicles 7:14,

I think you, yourself have to determine how & if you fast. By your faith.

Isaiah 58, Galatians 2:6, Hebrews 11:6, James 1:5-7,

The problem, you've stated you have is considered 'high blood sugar' usually less sugar intake is better for your body. Less food would be less sugar, but that means don't take the same insulin amounts. You should talk about it with the people you're trusting that diagnosed you & prescribed medicine to you, if you're taking insulin.

I guess the first act of faith in fasting for you could be, eating healthy. Cut out unnecessary sugars.

Several fellowships do a 15 day no desserts. Some turn off TV, radio etc to take time to listen to GOD. Usually all fasts reading the Bible & praying more. Turning from sin, like things that displease GOD. Like abusing someone's own body: 1Corinthians 6:9-10,11, Romans 14:22,23, Philippians 3:9,

Hebrews 11,

Interestingly the Bible mentions taking off Kingly garments & putting on sackcloth with fasting: 1Kings 21:27, Daniel 9:3, Isaiah 37:1, Jonah 3:5-10,

(this is the chapter Daniel 9, that the fellowship, takes the 'no dessert' fast from.)

Matthew 6, praying & asking Luke 11:1-13,

Then extreme fasts, for extreme situations: Books of Esther, Matthew 17:14-21,

Hopefully these are helpful

Psalm 74

We see the theme here as in much of the Book of Lamentations where God appears to have cast His presence from His people. When we get to chapter 3; verse 31 He promises not to "cast them off forever." Isaiah 26:20 describes God Himself stating that He had turned away for a short time but would return with mercy. Again; the final prophetic application would appear to be in Revelation (or the time of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7).

The "perpetual desolations" in verse 3 of this Psalm remind us of the "Abomination of Desolation" when the Temple is overtaken by Antichrist much as it was with Antiochus Epiphanes earlier in Daniel 9:25-27 and quoted by Christ starting in Matthew 24:15.

Verse 8 is as far as I know the only passage in scriptures mentioning the word synagogues; here they were being burned up by the enemy; likely prophetic of the Babylonians and of course the end times. Blasphemy as seen in Revelation 13 is mentioned in verse 18. The prophets being seen no more could refer ahead to the intertestamental times or again when there is vision sought in the end times by false prophets who predicted peace; peace when there is no peace ( Jeremiah 6:14).

Verse 20 implores God to "have respect unto the Covenant" as related; no doubt to the Promised Land. Once again the poor and needy are sought out as those who the Lord will restore; and the Psalm ends with a plea not to forget those enemies and their "tumult". Surely God will come soon; but will there be any faith on the earth when that Day comes? (See Luke 18:8).