When examining the Nature of God's Judgment and Salvation program, or any doctrine, we need to be careful not to draw conclusions from a few isolated verses. The Nature of Judgment and Salvation has remained constant throughout time. In fact the Bible in its Entirety is all about the Gospel, God's Judgment and Salvation program.
2 Timothy 3:16 " All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
That said, here are a few verses that bear on the question:
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Ephesians 1:2-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
Ezekiel 36:24-27
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
When we harmonize everything in the Bible, we learn that God does 100% of the work in saving and keeping each of His Elect. What a comfort
Hi again June 316. As much as your question can generate various opinions, my belief is that if a Christian has truly been born again, having received the Holy Spirit to indwell, sustain & secure him/her, then it is impossible for that person to have God's Spirit abandon him/her for any reason.
It is however true, that if a believer should succumb to the enemy's temptations and does not take remedial action as the Holy Spirit directs, then there will be loss. Not a loss of the Holy Spirit or salvation, but the loss of sweet communion, maybe of some degree of estrangement if sin is allowed to persist, and of the Spirit's intervention by way of warning or discipline. Or the Spirit might even allow that erring soul to taste the depravity of his/her sin, so that they may come to their senses, repent, and be restored; the story of the prodigal son is a good example of a poor choice made and yet, of a waiting loving father who is ready to forgive, receive, and restore ( Luke 15:11-32).
Just a few verses to consider (and there are many more): John 10:26-29; Romans 8:33-39; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Jude 1:24,25.
This is why we often read of the apostles encouraging believers to be on guard against the enemy of our souls, of sin creeping into the life, and not being involved in anything that even smells of sin; Why? Not for salvation's loss, but for suffering under God's Hand of discipline and the pain of estrangement from God.
Why should we entertain anything that breaks our special love relationship with our God & Savior & bring on ourselves sorrow upon sorrow? The Holy Spirit will always alert us when we err and will always bring us back, so salvation cannot be lost. But for those who feel no sorrow or estrangement when they stray, they do not have the Holy Spirit within them and are not saved. But while they have breath, there remains hope if they draw near to God, He will draw near to them. GBU.
Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
I agree with GiGi and the Scripture she gave, and my answer is yes, as there is one body, and one church, they are the same, Ephesians 1:19-23. The Church began at Pentecost, and for several years before Paul, through the apostles, the Lord added to it daily, Acts 2:42-47, Acts 4:32-33. There is one body, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Galatians 3:26-29. And as GiGi said, the apostles are the foundation of the holy city, New Jerusalem.
The word apostle comes from the Greek word apostolos, which translates to one who is sent out. The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel and establish the Church.
Paul's command (not a request) in 2 Timothy 2:15 - "rightly dividing the word of truth" - makes no sense if there is nothing to divide.
The Greek word translated "rightly divide" means to "cut straight" or "make a correct partition." Paul is instructing Timothy (and us) to handle God's Word carefully, recognizing distinctions God Himself has placed in it. The Bible is one unified revelation, but within it God deals with different people in different ways at different times (dispensations). For example:
Law vs. Grace: God gave Israel the Law through Moses ( Exodus 20), but through Paul He revealed salvation by grace apart from the Law ( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16). If we blur these, we end up mixing works with grace.
Israel vs. the Church: Israel was promised an earthly kingdom ( Jeremiah 23:5-6; Matthew 19:28), while the Body of Christ has a heavenly calling ( Ephesians 1:3; Philippians 3:20). If we confuse these, we misapply promises and commands not meant for us.
Gospel of the Kingdom vs. Gospel of Grace: (yes, there is more than one Gospel in the NT) Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom" to Israel ( Matthew 4:23; Galatians 2:7-9), while Paul was given "the gospel of the grace of God" ( Acts 20:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Both are true, but they serve different purposes in God's plan.
So Paul's point is: don't blend everything together as if it all applies in the same way to everyone. To "rightly divide" is to discern God's progressive revelation - prophecy vs. mystery, Israel's promises vs. the Church's hope, law vs. grace. If you don't divide, you end up in contradictions and confusion.
"1 [[A Psalm of praise.]] Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.2Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.4Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.5For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."
Ephesians 1:3-12
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."
Ephesians 2:8-10
"8For by grace are ye saved through faith[Christ's faith]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
Paul never teaches that believers in the Body of Christ can lose salvation, though some verses are misread that way. For example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 warns of being a "castaway," but Paul is referring to disqualification from reward or service, not loss of eternal life. In Galatians 5:4, "fallen from grace" means leaving the principle of grace for law-keeping, not forfeiting salvation. 2 Corinthians 13:5 calls for self-examination of genuine faith, not teaching that salvation can be undone. Likewise, Colossians 1:23 emphasizes perseverance as evidence of true faith.
In contrast, Paul repeatedly assures believers of eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that believers are sealed with the Spirit until redemption. Philippians 1:6 promises that God will complete His saving work. 2 Timothy 1:12 affirms Christ's power to keep what is entrusted to Him. Romans 11:29 states that God's gifts and calling are without repentance.
Thus, the "warning" passages deal with reward, service, and testimony, while Paul's consistent teaching is that salvation itself is secure in Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21,22: God has established us in Christ, anointed us, as sealed us with the guarantee of the Spirit, and is certainly not going to let us go. Also Ephesians 1:3-14.
Ephesians 2:8,9: it is only by God's Grace, as His Gift, that we are saved. If we are saved any other way, it is according to our way of salvation - not God's, which is endures & secures.
Philippians 1:6: If God has begun His Work in us, we can be confident He will always continue to work in us by His Spirit till the day we see Jesus in His Glory.
Jude 1:24: God alone can keep us from falling & present us faultless when we see Him.
A few verses that should teach us & assure us that the one who is truly is in Christ is truly secure forever. He will neither want to leave this most valuable Holy Faith, nor even be persuaded to do so even under the threat of death - for our lives are new, seated in the heavenly places, no longer of the Earth, hidden with Christ in God.
Don't confuse our sins being forgiven with being saved that is a totally separate issue. Yes our sins were forgiven at the cross, that does not mean we are sinless that would be contradictory to the scripture for we know that we are born in sin and shaping in an equity, it only means that our sins are not being held against us. Let's face it from a very young age through our entire life occasionally we will sin that's just how the flesh operates, but those sins have already been forgiven by the blood of Jesus on the cross See below.
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
My understanding of Reconciliation refers to God restoring the broken relationship between Himself and humanity caused by sin. Because of sin, humanity was separated from God ( Isaiah 59:2). Through Jesus' death, this barrier is removed, and peace is established. As 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 explains, God reconciled us to Himself through Christ, no longer counting our sins against us. This means the relationship is healed and restored.
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
Justification is God's legal declaration that a sinner is righteous because of faith in Jesus Christ. It is the act where God credits Christ's righteousness to us, not because of our works, but by grace through faith. Romans 3:23-24 teaches that all have sinned but are justified freely by God's grace through Jesus. Romans 5:1 states that being justified brings peace with God and salvation. Justification secures our right standing with God and guarantees eternal life.
In summary: Reconciliation restores relationship, forgiveness removes sin's guilt, and justification legally declares us righteous and saves us through faith in Christ's work on the cross.
Maybe this will be helpful as to how I'm arriving at my viewpoints.
Dispensationalism is a theological framework that sees history as divided into distinct periods, or "dispensations," in which God interacts with humanity in different ways. It emphasizes a literal interpretation of Scripture and a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.
Most dispensationalists identify seven dispensations:
Innocence - Adam and Eve before the Fall ( Genesis 1-3)
Conscience - From the Fall to the Flood ( Genesis 4-8)
Human Government - After the Flood ( Genesis 9-11)
Promise - Abraham to Moses ( Genesis 12-Exodus 19)
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
The Bible speaks for itself, no dictionary or man's concordance needed.
The apostle Paul is uniquely identified in Scripture as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ. In Romans 11:13, Paul declares, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." Unlike the Twelve Apostles, who were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6), Paul was sent by the risen, glorified Christ from heaven ( Acts 9:15; Galatians 1:11-12) to proclaim a new message-not the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24). Paul alone speaks of the "Church which is His Body" ( Ephesians 1:22-23), a new creation made up of both Jew and Gentile, united by faith and baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:14-16).
The Body of Christ was a mystery "kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25) and not revealed until Paul. He was given this revelation by Christ directly ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27) and is the only apostle who teaches its doctrines-such as salvation by grace through faith without works ( Ephesians 2:8-9), the heavenly position of believers ( Colossians 3:1-4), and the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Paul calls himself the "wise masterbuilder" who laid the foundation for this present dispensation of grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:10). The other apostles, including Peter, recognized Paul's distinct apostleship and agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision, while Paul went to the Gentiles ( Galatians 2:7-9).
No other apostle is identified in Scripture as the apostle of the Body of Christ. Only Paul received the full revelation of the mystery, the doctrines, and the heavenly calling of the Church. Therefore, Paul stands alone as the God-appointed apostle to the Body of Christ.
Some say that a Christian can one day decide they no longer want to be a Christian and just walk away, fall away, or defect from Christ. But if this is true, what happens to the Spirit of Christ that indwells the believer?
At the point of salvation, God's Spirit comes into a person's spirit, and they become a new creation in Christ. Jesus says He will never leave us, nor forsake us, so if a person chooses to walk away, where does His Spirit go? It doesn't make much sense to believe that Jesus will leave us when He says the opposite.
When a person receives Christ, they are given the gift of the Holy Spirit, and they are sealed with the Spirit forever. Those who believe in eternal security (which I am one) see this sealing as a guarantee of our salvation and inheritance. The only one who can break this seal is the One who did the sealing. A seal marks ownership. It is Christ who owns us. He purchased us. He redeemed us. We cannot break the seal, only Christ (God) can break it. So, if one chooses to "walk away," guess what? That person is still sealed with the Spirit. Christ isn't going anywhere.
Please consider Ephesians 1:13-14. Once we place our trust in Christ, once we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We have the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Again, we are purchased. Christ purchased us. He sealed us and only He can break the seal. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we are sealed with the Spirit of God "until" Christ comes.
The Kingdom Gospel preached by Peter and the Grace Gospel revealed through Paul represent two distinct programs in God's redemptive plan.
1. Peter's Kingdom Gospel (Faith + Works) - For Israel and the Little Flock
Peter's message centered on Israel's prophetic hope, the coming earthly kingdom, and the Messiahship of Jesus. This gospel required faith in Jesus as the Messiah, but it also included repentance, water baptism, and adherence to the law, as seen in Acts 2:38:
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ( Acts 2:38, KJV)
Key elements:
Audience: Jews (especially "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" - Matthew 10:5-6)
Content: Jesus is the promised Messiah; repent and be baptized.
Requirement: Faith plus works (baptism, continued obedience).
Goal: Entry into the earthly kingdom promised to Israel ( Luke 12:32 - "little flock").
James 2:24 supports this...
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
This shows that under the Kingdom Gospel, works confirmed faith for salvation, especially for the Jewish remnant.
2. Paul's Grace Gospel (Faith Alone) - For the Body of Christ
Paul preached a new, previously hidden "mystery" gospel revealed to him by Christ ( Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9). This message was not based on Israel's covenants or prophecy, but on grace alone through faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Key elements:
Audience: All (Jew and Gentile alike), forming the Body of Christ.
Content: Christ died for our sins and rose again.
Requirement: Faith alone (no works, no law, no baptism required for salvation).
Many today believe that the Church is a continuation or replacement of Israel, often calling it "spiritual Israel." However, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the Church-the Body of Christ-formed through the unique revelation given to the Apostle Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-6), is a distinct entity from the nation of Israel. Israel is a nation with earthly promises, covenants, and prophetic hope, while the Church is a heavenly people, formed without distinction between Jew and Gentile, united by faith alone in Christ and placed into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28).
Israel's promises were national and earthly-God covenanted land, a kingdom, and a Messiah to rule over them ( Genesis 17:7-8; Isaiah 9:6-7). These promises were never transferred to the Church. Instead, Paul reveals a "mystery" that was kept hidden from ages past ( Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26), in which God is forming a new, heavenly organism-the Body of Christ-composed of both Jew and Gentile, not based on nationality or covenant, but based on grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9). Nowhere in Paul's epistles does he teach that the Church has become Israel or inherits Israel's kingdom promises.
To equate the Church with spiritual Israel confuses God's prophetic program for Israel with His mystery program for the Body of Christ. God has not abandoned His promises to national Israel ( Romans 11:1-2, 25-29). Their fullness will come in a future day, during the millennial reign of Christ. In contrast, the Church was chosen before the foundation of the world and has a heavenly destiny ( Ephesians 1:3-4; Philippians 3:20). Understanding the difference protects sound doctrine and preserves the clarity of God's distinct purposes for Israel and the Church.
The programs changed from faith with works to Grace alone.
The Apostle Paul's message, often called the "gospel of grace," centers on the revelation that salvation is offered freely by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from the works of the Law. Unlike the message given to Israel under the Law, which required obedience to commandments and rituals, Paul's message reveals a new dispensation where both Jews and Gentiles are made one in Christ. In passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:28, Paul emphasizes that righteousness is imputed by faith alone, and that boasting in works is excluded. This gospel was a "mystery" revealed to Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-9), setting his ministry apart from the prophetic program previously known, I.E. Peters message.
Paul also taught that believers today are part of the "body of Christ," a spiritual organism distinct from the nation of Israel. Members of this body are sealed with the Holy Spirit and blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ( Ephesians 1:3, 13). Paul's message includes not only justification by faith but also identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection ( Romans 6:3-5), offering believers a new walk in the Spirit rather than under the Law. His grace-centered gospel calls for no physical circumcision, temple worship, or adherence to Mosaic ordinances, but rather a life transformed by Christ's indwelling presence and the hope of heavenly glory.
We see two places where angels are chained in darkness: 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 1:6. To me, this is a prison, a confinement area, as we see in Revelation 9, 11, 17, and 20. These angels did not keep their original estate or position and left their own dwelling place. These angels were disobedient to God, as seen in Genesis 6:1-2. There are fallen angels, demons, and devils on this earth, but what these angels did was so terrible that God locked them in the bottomless pit until the great day of judgment.
In Ephesians 4:8-10, there is another reference; verses 9-10 are debated depending on the manuscript. They say that before Jesus ascended to heaven, He first descended to the lower parts of the earth. Paul quotes Psalm 68:18, which describes the ark ascending to Mount Zion, leading captivity captive, symbolizing deliverance. Also, in Judges 5:12, part of Deborah's song, it states, "led thy captivity captive," meaning victory over oppression.
The same theme appears in Ephesians 4:8, victory over sin, death, and the grave through the life, sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Jesus, as referenced in Galatians 1:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:52-55. We also see the gifts given in Ephesians 4:11, Romans 12:4-8, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
When Jesus was resurrected, God placed Him above all, as shown in Philippians 2:9-11, Ephesians 1:19-21, and 1 Peter 3:22. Satan, just like the leaders of Jerusalem, thought that when the Messiah came, He would immediately deliver them and establish His kingdom at that time, the expectation not yet fulfilled. When Satan influenced Judas to betray Jesus to death, he thought he had won.
What a glorious truth that anyone can be reconciled to God through simple, child-like faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you aren't sure of your salvation, God has graciously provided a way for you to be cleansed from ALL sins, past, present, and future. Simply believe the Gospel that the Risen Savior gave to our Apostle Paul. Right this very minute believe and trust the following Scriptures:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you By which also ye are saved how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"
- 1 Corinthians 15 1-4 (KJV)
What a glorious truth that anyone can be reconciled to God through simple, child-like faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you aren't sure of your salvation, God has graciously provided a way for you to be cleansed from ALL sins, past, present, and future. Simply believe the Gospel that the Risen Savior gave to our Apostle Paul. Right this very minute believe and trust the following Scriptures:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you By which also ye are saved how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"
- 1 Corinthians 15 1-4 (KJV)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
"In whom ye also trusted, after tha"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
I pray that I do not offend you, brother. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and God placed Him above all, not just humans, until the last enemy is destroyed. Jesus is worthy of these titles. We do not see the apostles teaching that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, in Acts 3:13, where Peter says, "the God of our fathers hath glorified His Son."
In Revelation 1:17-18 says "he that liveth and was dead and behold I am alive for evermore". God is Spirit and eternal, and can not change, nor even any part of Him die. God sent His Son into this world to be the propitiation for our sins, 1 John 4:10. The law was for man, who could be tempted, Hebrews 4:14, God cannot be tempted James 1:13. Man had to live a perfect life, obedient to the Father, and die that through Jesus's blood, we have redemption, Ephesians 1:7, God is a Spirit.
The phrase "son of man" in the Old Testament is a metaphor or idiom referring to a human being or a mere mortal. God addressed Ezekiel as "Son of Man"; Jesus referred to Himself 80 times as the "Son of Man." In Daniel 7:13-14, Daniel was shown a vision of Jesus after His resurrection ascending to heaven, to His Father, Ephesians 1:17-23, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory. God does not have a God, 2 Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 4:6, 1 Pet. 1:3.
Daniel 10, this is not a vision of Christ; it is an angel, Gabriel. This chapter shows us that battles in the spiritual realm are going on that we do not see or hear. Daniel had prayed and was mourning about what he had been shown would happen to his people and Jerusalem in Daniel 9. In Daniel 10:12-14, Gabriel tells Daniel why he was late coming; this is not a vision of Christ.
I will leave it there; I hope you understand my reply is in love.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
The answer to your question is in that thread to the original posting.
The Lord Jesus was ordained to come into the world as the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world (Adam's offense) AND TO REDEEM THAT WHICH WAS LOST before the world begun.
1 Peter 1:19-20.
Ephesians 1:4.
BennymkjeI believe there is nothing that God doesn't know,
God is not confined by time!
EVERY act of God is done by his foreknowledge so I describe him as wise!
God presented his love for all humanity before the world begun.
God gave Adam and Eve dominion over all the earth and to dress the Garden of Eden.
I believe evil existed on the earth, but Adam and Eve had no knowledge of it. (KEEP IN MIND SATAN HAD ALREADY FALLEN AT THIS POINT)
Adam and Eve was naked literally and figuratively (Uncovered or vulnerable to sin with no atonement for sin.)
I believe God put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him, knowing they would eat of it. Without a knowledge of evil or transgression there is no sin.
THIS DIDNT CATCH GOD BY SURPRISE!
The Lord Jesus was ordained to come into the world as the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world AND TO REDEEM THAT WHICH WAS LOST before the world begun.
1 Peter 1:19-20.
Ephesians 1:4.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (The plan for Jesus's sacrifice was in place before the world's creation.)
Everlasting life was to never come by the first Adam but by the last. 1 Corinthians 15:45.
Hi Honeybun. Your question relating to Ephesians 1:10 won't give you the answer you seek. That reference, as also the word 'dispensation', found in these other verses: 1 Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 3:2; Colossians 1:25 has another meaning. In these verses, including Ephesians 1:10, 'dispensation' relates to stewardship, administration, management. What you're asking is about those who are called 'Dispensationalists' and their dividing the whole Bible into several times or epochs of God's dealing with His people Israel & also His Church.
Generally, they believe in seven Dispensations in the Bible; namely, Of Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, the coming Millennial Kingdom of Christ. But even this number can vary depending how one reads the Bible. My own understanding or application of this is not absolute or even necessary when the whole Bible is read & understood correctly. The point of difference arises when the question is asked, 'is the Bible to be read literally (allowing of course, for various symbols, figures of speech & types) or non-literally (i.e. the prophecies of old & the message itself of the Bible must be read non-literally & applied as such). So for example, when we read of a thousand years in Revelation chap 20, is that a literal or non-literal number and does that time still lie ahead? Or, the promises of God to Israel (concerning land, many descendants, blessings), are they yet to be fulfilled literally (i.e. Israel is still in God's Plan, though temporarily removed because of unbelief), or should Israel be rejected as God-forsaken and the Church (comprising of saved Jew & Gentile) replace them? How you answer just these two questions, will show how you interpret Scripture and possibly your leanings towards dispensationalism or not.
Hi everyone, when I was thinking about something last night I thought how unfair the world is. We shouldn't be like this. Hallelujah praise be to God in the Highest! And a little word we say or a little thing we do can be wrong and we don't even think about it that some people might take notice of it. Now I see from all the answers that I haven't seen everything that I should in connection with the story about the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, what one writes, well, I shared a testimony. So no one needs to get hung up on that, exactly. And I'm happy about everything you've brought up. Then we've satisfied both body and soul and spirit.
What concerns me is not angles and discussions. We know what Paul thinks about it. But if you disagree about something, so be it, it must come out.
Now God always ARE. Ephesians 1:13 I want to comfort you who know that you are believers but who are again faithful and lovable to the end. And have not had the great experience. I'm sure you have, think about it? All believers have a testimony. It's been a long time since I read one here. There lies the essence of your salvation and encounter with God, worthy of all attention. For through your testimony people can come to the knowledge of truth. And dear friends, whether you have been obedient to God from the beginning or whether you have just now come to the Lord and said yes! To His marriage proposal, one might say? So if you have something to share from our life of Lord Jesus Christ, may the Lord bless you to do so.
I would like to thank the Administrator here. You are doing a wonderful job! May the Lord bless you and yours from now on and forever, in Jesus Christ holy name. Amen
Love u and all in Christ Jesus and have a brilliant weekend.
More on the concept of church as a family of adopted sons ( Ephesians 1:5 and several other N.T. passages)
The illustration has been given of how unseemly it would be to be consuming milk only as an adult; and we see that analogy in the book of Corinthians ( 1 Corinthians 3:2). We need to back up a bit to be certain that a given individual actually IS in the faith; or their "mature" conduct could simply be conditioning through rote memorization and behavior modification to attempt to "fit in" much as we put on a persona at work and with our friends and family that has certain distinct characteristics.
Once we are fully trained; of course in the natural as well as the spiritual we are expected to go on and make Disciples as the Great Commission states. This has been lacking with the emphasis on spreading the Good News and often guiding people to the nearest church without studying their doctrine or doing follow up. I find it best in my opinion and with some experience street witnessing to recommend a person goes to whatever local church preaches the true Gospel whether it is my own place or not. Obviously having multiple people spreading the Good News from a given local congregation gives more of an impetus to attend; although in the past I was more committed to a "house church" where some people eventually became more invested in given churches.
It is hard for many to envision a scenario like Paul the Apostle at least in our nation who a cording to Acts 21:13 had to rebuke those weeping after hearing the prophetic warning about his impending death. It reads- Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
A lot of churches today send someone out and have a very limited communication sending monthly stipends at least from my experience. That was different with the "house church" who had close ties with a brother witnessing in Uganda.
May our hearts be clean, so that we may live in holiness and truth before God. Every detail of life reveals His care. We pray, as in Ephesians 1:17, that the Spirit of wisdom and revelation may lead us into a deeper relationship with Him-for apart from His presence, everything loses its true meaning.
Teach us to love as Christ loved-whether in marriage, in friendship, or in service. May our words, thoughts, and actions reflect a heart that walks closely with Him. As 1 Corinthians 13:11 reminds us, maturity in faith transforms how we speak, think, and live. And may we be faithful stewards of our time, resources, and words-so that all things may bring glory to God.
Hebrews 4:3 references Psalm 95, which describes the Israelites' journey with Moses through the wilderness, enduring dunes, rocky paths, and scarce food and water. Those who did not remain faithful, trusting in God's promise, did not enter God's rest. This passage stresses faith and the rest God has promised to those who, in faith, overcome the trials of this life filled with challenges, temptations, and struggles.
Revelation 3:5 shows us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot earn our salvation through our actions; rather, this rest is dependent on accepting the grace and redemption offered in Christ, works that were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-8 states that all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This time is still to come; only true believers will be able to resist this hour of temptation that is foretold in Revelation 3:10. We see this same language in the concept that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
The challenge and reward are found in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 13:9-10, "He who has ears, let him hear." We can read and study the Bible without grasping the truth of its message for different reasons, truth comes from prayer. Our ears are connected to our eyes; if we cannot hear, we are also blind.
We have these verses to consider.
Before being ordained, Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 1:15
The foreknowledge of God, Acts 2:23, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26-27, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20
2 Timothy 3:16 " All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
That said, here are a few verses that bear on the question:
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Ephesians 1:2-6
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
Ezekiel 36:24-27
"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
When we harmonize everything in the Bible, we learn that God does 100% of the work in saving and keeping each of His Elect. What a comfort
It is however true, that if a believer should succumb to the enemy's temptations and does not take remedial action as the Holy Spirit directs, then there will be loss. Not a loss of the Holy Spirit or salvation, but the loss of sweet communion, maybe of some degree of estrangement if sin is allowed to persist, and of the Spirit's intervention by way of warning or discipline. Or the Spirit might even allow that erring soul to taste the depravity of his/her sin, so that they may come to their senses, repent, and be restored; the story of the prodigal son is a good example of a poor choice made and yet, of a waiting loving father who is ready to forgive, receive, and restore ( Luke 15:11-32).
Just a few verses to consider (and there are many more): John 10:26-29; Romans 8:33-39; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Jude 1:24,25.
This is why we often read of the apostles encouraging believers to be on guard against the enemy of our souls, of sin creeping into the life, and not being involved in anything that even smells of sin; Why? Not for salvation's loss, but for suffering under God's Hand of discipline and the pain of estrangement from God.
Why should we entertain anything that breaks our special love relationship with our God & Savior & bring on ourselves sorrow upon sorrow? The Holy Spirit will always alert us when we err and will always bring us back, so salvation cannot be lost. But for those who feel no sorrow or estrangement when they stray, they do not have the Holy Spirit within them and are not saved. But while they have breath, there remains hope if they draw near to God, He will draw near to them. GBU.
Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
Thanks Brother and God bless!!
I agree with GiGi and the Scripture she gave, and my answer is yes, as there is one body, and one church, they are the same, Ephesians 1:19-23. The Church began at Pentecost, and for several years before Paul, through the apostles, the Lord added to it daily, Acts 2:42-47, Acts 4:32-33. There is one body, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Galatians 3:26-29. And as GiGi said, the apostles are the foundation of the holy city, New Jerusalem.
The word apostle comes from the Greek word apostolos, which translates to one who is sent out. The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Gospel and establish the Church.
God bless,
RLW
Paul's command (not a request) in 2 Timothy 2:15 - "rightly dividing the word of truth" - makes no sense if there is nothing to divide.
The Greek word translated "rightly divide" means to "cut straight" or "make a correct partition." Paul is instructing Timothy (and us) to handle God's Word carefully, recognizing distinctions God Himself has placed in it. The Bible is one unified revelation, but within it God deals with different people in different ways at different times (dispensations). For example:
Law vs. Grace: God gave Israel the Law through Moses ( Exodus 20), but through Paul He revealed salvation by grace apart from the Law ( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16). If we blur these, we end up mixing works with grace.
Israel vs. the Church: Israel was promised an earthly kingdom ( Jeremiah 23:5-6; Matthew 19:28), while the Body of Christ has a heavenly calling ( Ephesians 1:3; Philippians 3:20). If we confuse these, we misapply promises and commands not meant for us.
Gospel of the Kingdom vs. Gospel of Grace: (yes, there is more than one Gospel in the NT) Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom" to Israel ( Matthew 4:23; Galatians 2:7-9), while Paul was given "the gospel of the grace of God" ( Acts 20:24; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Both are true, but they serve different purposes in God's plan.
So Paul's point is: don't blend everything together as if it all applies in the same way to everyone. To "rightly divide" is to discern God's progressive revelation - prophecy vs. mystery, Israel's promises vs. the Church's hope, law vs. grace. If you don't divide, you end up in contradictions and confusion.
G&P
"1 [[A Psalm of praise.]] Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.2Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.4Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.5For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."
Ephesians 1:3-12
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."
Ephesians 2:8-10
"8For by grace are ye saved through faith[Christ's faith]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
a. Jesus Christ's perfect Sacrifice, once and for all people. 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 10:9,10.
b. We have been justified, declared not guilty, by that Sacrifice and faith in Him. Romans 5:1,2.
c. God has imputed Christ's Righteousness in us, making us holy. Romans 4:22-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21.
d. God has adopted us into His family, never to abandon us. Ephesians 1:5, Galatians 4:5,6.
Hope this helps.
Beautifully written, thanks.
I think we're pretty close with this one...
Here's my take!
Paul never teaches that believers in the Body of Christ can lose salvation, though some verses are misread that way. For example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 warns of being a "castaway," but Paul is referring to disqualification from reward or service, not loss of eternal life. In Galatians 5:4, "fallen from grace" means leaving the principle of grace for law-keeping, not forfeiting salvation. 2 Corinthians 13:5 calls for self-examination of genuine faith, not teaching that salvation can be undone. Likewise, Colossians 1:23 emphasizes perseverance as evidence of true faith.
In contrast, Paul repeatedly assures believers of eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that believers are sealed with the Spirit until redemption. Philippians 1:6 promises that God will complete His saving work. 2 Timothy 1:12 affirms Christ's power to keep what is entrusted to Him. Romans 11:29 states that God's gifts and calling are without repentance.
Thus, the "warning" passages deal with reward, service, and testimony, while Paul's consistent teaching is that salvation itself is secure in Christ.
God Bless.
2 Corinthians 1:21,22: God has established us in Christ, anointed us, as sealed us with the guarantee of the Spirit, and is certainly not going to let us go. Also Ephesians 1:3-14.
Ephesians 2:8,9: it is only by God's Grace, as His Gift, that we are saved. If we are saved any other way, it is according to our way of salvation - not God's, which is endures & secures.
Philippians 1:6: If God has begun His Work in us, we can be confident He will always continue to work in us by His Spirit till the day we see Jesus in His Glory.
Jude 1:24: God alone can keep us from falling & present us faultless when we see Him.
A few verses that should teach us & assure us that the one who is truly is in Christ is truly secure forever. He will neither want to leave this most valuable Holy Faith, nor even be persuaded to do so even under the threat of death - for our lives are new, seated in the heavenly places, no longer of the Earth, hidden with Christ in God.
i'm curious, who believes you can lose your salvation and who believes once saved always saved?
For years I believed you could lose your salvation, that is no longer the case.
Ephesians 1: 10-13
Would we be so kind as to respond with supporting scripture?
God Bless!
Don't confuse our sins being forgiven with being saved that is a totally separate issue. Yes our sins were forgiven at the cross, that does not mean we are sinless that would be contradictory to the scripture for we know that we are born in sin and shaping in an equity, it only means that our sins are not being held against us. Let's face it from a very young age through our entire life occasionally we will sin that's just how the flesh operates, but those sins have already been forgiven by the blood of Jesus on the cross See below.
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
I hope that helps.
God bless
Forgiveness at the cross is the specific act where God cancels the debt of our sins by Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness means our sins are wiped away and not held against us. Ephesians 1:7 says we have redemption and forgiveness through Jesus' blood. Colossians 2:13-14 shows that Jesus' death canceled the record of our sins. Forgiveness is a key part of reconciliation but focuses specifically on sin's penalty being removed.
Justification is God's legal declaration that a sinner is righteous because of faith in Jesus Christ. It is the act where God credits Christ's righteousness to us, not because of our works, but by grace through faith. Romans 3:23-24 teaches that all have sinned but are justified freely by God's grace through Jesus. Romans 5:1 states that being justified brings peace with God and salvation. Justification secures our right standing with God and guarantees eternal life.
In summary: Reconciliation restores relationship, forgiveness removes sin's guilt, and justification legally declares us righteous and saves us through faith in Christ's work on the cross.
Maybe this will be helpful as to how I'm arriving at my viewpoints.
Dispensationalism is a theological framework that sees history as divided into distinct periods, or "dispensations," in which God interacts with humanity in different ways. It emphasizes a literal interpretation of Scripture and a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.
Most dispensationalists identify seven dispensations:
Innocence - Adam and Eve before the Fall ( Genesis 1-3)
Conscience - From the Fall to the Flood ( Genesis 4-8)
Human Government - After the Flood ( Genesis 9-11)
Promise - Abraham to Moses ( Genesis 12- Exodus 19)
Law - Moses to Christ ( Exodus 20- Acts 2)
Grace - The Church Age ( Acts 2-present)
Kingdom - Christ's 1,000-year reign ( Revelation 20)
Each period involves a specific test, human failure, and God's judgment, followed by a new dispensation.
The King James Bible (KJV) contains the word "dispensation" four times:
1 Corinthians 9:17
Ephesians 1:10
Ephesians 3:2
Colossians 1:25
These passages use the Greek word oikonomia, meaning stewardship or administration.
GB
Any thoughts?
Right Division ( 2 Timothy 2:15)
The Church, the Body of Christ, is distinct from the Bride of Christ-a truth revealed uniquely through the Apostle Paul under the dispensation of grace. While traditional teaching often blends Israel's prophetic promises with the Church's heavenly calling, a right division ( 2 Timothy 2:15) reveals that believers today, saved by grace through faith alone ( Ephesians 2:8-9), are part of a new creation: the Body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Romans 12:5).
Paul never refers to the Church as the "Bride of Christ." Instead, he consistently identifies the Church as a body in which Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18). This organism is spiritual, made up of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled into one new man ( Ephesians 2:15-16). This unity was a "mystery" kept hidden from ages past ( Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:1-6), never prophesied or associated with Israel's covenantal promises.
In contrast, the bride metaphor is rooted in prophecy and tied to Israel. Revelation 21:9-10 calls the New Jerusalem "the bride, the Lamb's wife," a city prepared for redeemed Israel ( Isaiah 62:4-5; Hosea 2:19-20). John the Baptist called himself a "friend of the bridegroom" ( John 3:29), which places him outside the bride. Paul, while using marriage as a metaphor in Ephesians 5, still emphasizes the Body-not a bride-saying, "We are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones" ( Ephesians 5:30). The analogy teaches love and unity, not identity.
Confusing the Bride with the Body blends Israel's earthly hope with the Church's heavenly calling ( Philippians 3:20). We are not awaiting a wedding ceremony, but rather a catching away ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) to appear with Christ in glory. As members of His Body, we are already spiritually one with Him ( 1 Corinthians 6:17). Understanding this distinction preserves the truth of God's separate programs for Israel and the Church.
God Bless
The apostle Paul is uniquely identified in Scripture as the chosen vessel through whom God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ. In Romans 11:13, Paul declares, "I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." Unlike the Twelve Apostles, who were sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ( Matthew 10:5-6), Paul was sent by the risen, glorified Christ from heaven ( Acts 9:15; Galatians 1:11-12) to proclaim a new message-not the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Gospel of the Grace of God ( Acts 20:24). Paul alone speaks of the "Church which is His Body" ( Ephesians 1:22-23), a new creation made up of both Jew and Gentile, united by faith and baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:14-16).
The Body of Christ was a mystery "kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25) and not revealed until Paul. He was given this revelation by Christ directly ( Ephesians 3:1-9; Colossians 1:24-27) and is the only apostle who teaches its doctrines-such as salvation by grace through faith without works ( Ephesians 2:8-9), the heavenly position of believers ( Colossians 3:1-4), and the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Paul calls himself the "wise masterbuilder" who laid the foundation for this present dispensation of grace ( 1 Corinthians 3:10). The other apostles, including Peter, recognized Paul's distinct apostleship and agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision, while Paul went to the Gentiles ( Galatians 2:7-9).
No other apostle is identified in Scripture as the apostle of the Body of Christ. Only Paul received the full revelation of the mystery, the doctrines, and the heavenly calling of the Church. Therefore, Paul stands alone as the God-appointed apostle to the Body of Christ.
(Part 1):
Some say that a Christian can one day decide they no longer want to be a Christian and just walk away, fall away, or defect from Christ. But if this is true, what happens to the Spirit of Christ that indwells the believer?
At the point of salvation, God's Spirit comes into a person's spirit, and they become a new creation in Christ. Jesus says He will never leave us, nor forsake us, so if a person chooses to walk away, where does His Spirit go? It doesn't make much sense to believe that Jesus will leave us when He says the opposite.
When a person receives Christ, they are given the gift of the Holy Spirit, and they are sealed with the Spirit forever. Those who believe in eternal security (which I am one) see this sealing as a guarantee of our salvation and inheritance. The only one who can break this seal is the One who did the sealing. A seal marks ownership. It is Christ who owns us. He purchased us. He redeemed us. We cannot break the seal, only Christ (God) can break it. So, if one chooses to "walk away," guess what? That person is still sealed with the Spirit. Christ isn't going anywhere.
Please consider Ephesians 1:13-14. Once we place our trust in Christ, once we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We have the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Again, we are purchased. Christ purchased us. He sealed us and only He can break the seal. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we are sealed with the Spirit of God "until" Christ comes.
1. Peter's Kingdom Gospel (Faith + Works) - For Israel and the Little Flock
Peter's message centered on Israel's prophetic hope, the coming earthly kingdom, and the Messiahship of Jesus. This gospel required faith in Jesus as the Messiah, but it also included repentance, water baptism, and adherence to the law, as seen in Acts 2:38:
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ( Acts 2:38, KJV)
Key elements:
Audience: Jews (especially "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" - Matthew 10:5-6)
Content: Jesus is the promised Messiah; repent and be baptized.
Requirement: Faith plus works (baptism, continued obedience).
Goal: Entry into the earthly kingdom promised to Israel ( Luke 12:32 - "little flock").
James 2:24 supports this...
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
This shows that under the Kingdom Gospel, works confirmed faith for salvation, especially for the Jewish remnant.
2. Paul's Grace Gospel (Faith Alone) - For the Body of Christ
Paul preached a new, previously hidden "mystery" gospel revealed to him by Christ ( Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9). This message was not based on Israel's covenants or prophecy, but on grace alone through faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Key elements:
Audience: All (Jew and Gentile alike), forming the Body of Christ.
Content: Christ died for our sins and rose again.
Requirement: Faith alone (no works, no law, no baptism required for salvation).
Goal: Salvation unto a heavenly inheritance ( Philippians 3:20; Ephesians 1:3).
Romans 4:5 is definitive:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is
Did they both preach Jesus as Savior, of course, but the requirements for salvation changed with Paul.
Many today believe that the Church is a continuation or replacement of Israel, often calling it "spiritual Israel." However, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15), we see that the Church-the Body of Christ-formed through the unique revelation given to the Apostle Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-6), is a distinct entity from the nation of Israel. Israel is a nation with earthly promises, covenants, and prophetic hope, while the Church is a heavenly people, formed without distinction between Jew and Gentile, united by faith alone in Christ and placed into one Body ( 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28).
Israel's promises were national and earthly-God covenanted land, a kingdom, and a Messiah to rule over them ( Genesis 17:7-8; Isaiah 9:6-7). These promises were never transferred to the Church. Instead, Paul reveals a "mystery" that was kept hidden from ages past ( Romans 16:25; Colossians 1:26), in which God is forming a new, heavenly organism-the Body of Christ-composed of both Jew and Gentile, not based on nationality or covenant, but based on grace through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-9). Nowhere in Paul's epistles does he teach that the Church has become Israel or inherits Israel's kingdom promises.
To equate the Church with spiritual Israel confuses God's prophetic program for Israel with His mystery program for the Body of Christ. God has not abandoned His promises to national Israel ( Romans 11:1-2, 25-29). Their fullness will come in a future day, during the millennial reign of Christ. In contrast, the Church was chosen before the foundation of the world and has a heavenly destiny ( Ephesians 1:3-4; Philippians 3:20). Understanding the difference protects sound doctrine and preserves the clarity of God's distinct purposes for Israel and the Church.
The programs changed from faith with works to Grace alone.
The Apostle Paul's message, often called the "gospel of grace," centers on the revelation that salvation is offered freely by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, apart from the works of the Law. Unlike the message given to Israel under the Law, which required obedience to commandments and rituals, Paul's message reveals a new dispensation where both Jews and Gentiles are made one in Christ. In passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:28, Paul emphasizes that righteousness is imputed by faith alone, and that boasting in works is excluded. This gospel was a "mystery" revealed to Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-9), setting his ministry apart from the prophetic program previously known, I.E. Peters message.
Paul also taught that believers today are part of the "body of Christ," a spiritual organism distinct from the nation of Israel. Members of this body are sealed with the Holy Spirit and blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places ( Ephesians 1:3, 13). Paul's message includes not only justification by faith but also identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection ( Romans 6:3-5), offering believers a new walk in the Spirit rather than under the Law. His grace-centered gospel calls for no physical circumcision, temple worship, or adherence to Mosaic ordinances, but rather a life transformed by Christ's indwelling presence and the hope of heavenly glory.
Thanks.
We see two places where angels are chained in darkness: 2 Peter 2:4-5 and Jude 1:6. To me, this is a prison, a confinement area, as we see in Revelation 9, 11, 17, and 20. These angels did not keep their original estate or position and left their own dwelling place. These angels were disobedient to God, as seen in Genesis 6:1-2. There are fallen angels, demons, and devils on this earth, but what these angels did was so terrible that God locked them in the bottomless pit until the great day of judgment.
In Ephesians 4:8-10, there is another reference; verses 9-10 are debated depending on the manuscript. They say that before Jesus ascended to heaven, He first descended to the lower parts of the earth. Paul quotes Psalm 68:18, which describes the ark ascending to Mount Zion, leading captivity captive, symbolizing deliverance. Also, in Judges 5:12, part of Deborah's song, it states, "led thy captivity captive," meaning victory over oppression.
The same theme appears in Ephesians 4:8, victory over sin, death, and the grave through the life, sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Jesus, as referenced in Galatians 1:4 and 1 Corinthians 15:52-55. We also see the gifts given in Ephesians 4:11, Romans 12:4-8, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
When Jesus was resurrected, God placed Him above all, as shown in Philippians 2:9-11, Ephesians 1:19-21, and 1 Peter 3:22. Satan, just like the leaders of Jerusalem, thought that when the Messiah came, He would immediately deliver them and establish His kingdom at that time, the expectation not yet fulfilled. When Satan influenced Judas to betray Jesus to death, he thought he had won.
See part 3
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you By which also ye are saved how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"
- 1 Corinthians 15 1-4 (KJV)
What a glorious truth that anyone can be reconciled to God through simple, child-like faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you aren't sure of your salvation, God has graciously provided a way for you to be cleansed from ALL sins, past, present, and future. Simply believe the Gospel that the Risen Savior gave to our Apostle Paul. Right this very minute believe and trust the following Scriptures:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you By which also ye are saved how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"
- 1 Corinthians 15 1-4 (KJV)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
"In whom ye also trusted, after tha"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
- Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
- Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
I pray that I do not offend you, brother. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and God placed Him above all, not just humans, until the last enemy is destroyed. Jesus is worthy of these titles. We do not see the apostles teaching that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, in Acts 3:13, where Peter says, "the God of our fathers hath glorified His Son."
In Revelation 1:17-18 says "he that liveth and was dead and behold I am alive for evermore". God is Spirit and eternal, and can not change, nor even any part of Him die. God sent His Son into this world to be the propitiation for our sins, 1 John 4:10. The law was for man, who could be tempted, Hebrews 4:14, God cannot be tempted James 1:13. Man had to live a perfect life, obedient to the Father, and die that through Jesus's blood, we have redemption, Ephesians 1:7, God is a Spirit.
The phrase "son of man" in the Old Testament is a metaphor or idiom referring to a human being or a mere mortal. God addressed Ezekiel as "Son of Man"; Jesus referred to Himself 80 times as the "Son of Man." In Daniel 7:13-14, Daniel was shown a vision of Jesus after His resurrection ascending to heaven, to His Father, Ephesians 1:17-23, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory. God does not have a God, 2 Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 4:6, 1 Pet. 1:3.
Daniel 10, this is not a vision of Christ; it is an angel, Gabriel. This chapter shows us that battles in the spiritual realm are going on that we do not see or hear. Daniel had prayed and was mourning about what he had been shown would happen to his people and Jerusalem in Daniel 9. In Daniel 10:12-14, Gabriel tells Daniel why he was late coming; this is not a vision of Christ.
I will leave it there; I hope you understand my reply is in love.
bless,
RLW
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
God bless,
RLW
The answer to your question is in that thread to the original posting.
The Lord Jesus was ordained to come into the world as the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world (Adam's offense) AND TO REDEEM THAT WHICH WAS LOST before the world begun.
1 Peter 1:19-20.
Ephesians 1:4.
BennymkjeI believe there is nothing that God doesn't know,
God is not confined by time!
EVERY act of God is done by his foreknowledge so I describe him as wise!
God presented his love for all humanity before the world begun.
Thanks for responding.
(The tree of knowledge of good and evil)
Here is my viewpoint.
God gave Adam and Eve dominion over all the earth and to dress the Garden of Eden.
I believe evil existed on the earth, but Adam and Eve had no knowledge of it. (KEEP IN MIND SATAN HAD ALREADY FALLEN AT THIS POINT)
Adam and Eve was naked literally and figuratively (Uncovered or vulnerable to sin with no atonement for sin.)
I believe God put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him, knowing they would eat of it. Without a knowledge of evil or transgression there is no sin.
THIS DIDNT CATCH GOD BY SURPRISE!
The Lord Jesus was ordained to come into the world as the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world AND TO REDEEM THAT WHICH WAS LOST before the world begun.
1 Peter 1:19-20.
Ephesians 1:4.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (The plan for Jesus's sacrifice was in place before the world's creation.)
Everlasting life was to never come by the first Adam but by the last. 1 Corinthians 15:45.
There may be different views on this.
God bless.
Generally, they believe in seven Dispensations in the Bible; namely, Of Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, the coming Millennial Kingdom of Christ. But even this number can vary depending how one reads the Bible. My own understanding or application of this is not absolute or even necessary when the whole Bible is read & understood correctly. The point of difference arises when the question is asked, 'is the Bible to be read literally (allowing of course, for various symbols, figures of speech & types) or non-literally (i.e. the prophecies of old & the message itself of the Bible must be read non-literally & applied as such). So for example, when we read of a thousand years in Revelation chap 20, is that a literal or non-literal number and does that time still lie ahead? Or, the promises of God to Israel (concerning land, many descendants, blessings), are they yet to be fulfilled literally (i.e. Israel is still in God's Plan, though temporarily removed because of unbelief), or should Israel be rejected as God-forsaken and the Church (comprising of saved Jew & Gentile) replace them? How you answer just these two questions, will show how you interpret Scripture and possibly your leanings towards dispensationalism or not.
What concerns me is not angles and discussions. We know what Paul thinks about it. But if you disagree about something, so be it, it must come out.
Now God always ARE. Ephesians 1:13 I want to comfort you who know that you are believers but who are again faithful and lovable to the end. And have not had the great experience. I'm sure you have, think about it? All believers have a testimony. It's been a long time since I read one here. There lies the essence of your salvation and encounter with God, worthy of all attention. For through your testimony people can come to the knowledge of truth. And dear friends, whether you have been obedient to God from the beginning or whether you have just now come to the Lord and said yes! To His marriage proposal, one might say? So if you have something to share from our life of Lord Jesus Christ, may the Lord bless you to do so.
I would like to thank the Administrator here. You are doing a wonderful job! May the Lord bless you and yours from now on and forever, in Jesus Christ holy name. Amen
Love u and all in Christ Jesus and have a brilliant weekend.
The illustration has been given of how unseemly it would be to be consuming milk only as an adult; and we see that analogy in the book of Corinthians ( 1 Corinthians 3:2). We need to back up a bit to be certain that a given individual actually IS in the faith; or their "mature" conduct could simply be conditioning through rote memorization and behavior modification to attempt to "fit in" much as we put on a persona at work and with our friends and family that has certain distinct characteristics.
Once we are fully trained; of course in the natural as well as the spiritual we are expected to go on and make Disciples as the Great Commission states. This has been lacking with the emphasis on spreading the Good News and often guiding people to the nearest church without studying their doctrine or doing follow up. I find it best in my opinion and with some experience street witnessing to recommend a person goes to whatever local church preaches the true Gospel whether it is my own place or not. Obviously having multiple people spreading the Good News from a given local congregation gives more of an impetus to attend; although in the past I was more committed to a "house church" where some people eventually became more invested in given churches.
It is hard for many to envision a scenario like Paul the Apostle at least in our nation who a cording to Acts 21:13 had to rebuke those weeping after hearing the prophetic warning about his impending death. It reads- Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
A lot of churches today send someone out and have a very limited communication sending monthly stipends at least from my experience. That was different with the "house church" who had close ties with a brother witnessing in Uganda.
May our hearts be clean, so that we may live in holiness and truth before God. Every detail of life reveals His care. We pray, as in Ephesians 1:17, that the Spirit of wisdom and revelation may lead us into a deeper relationship with Him-for apart from His presence, everything loses its true meaning.
Teach us to love as Christ loved-whether in marriage, in friendship, or in service. May our words, thoughts, and actions reflect a heart that walks closely with Him. As 1 Corinthians 13:11 reminds us, maturity in faith transforms how we speak, think, and live. And may we be faithful stewards of our time, resources, and words-so that all things may bring glory to God.
Part 7.
Hebrews 4:3 references Psalm 95, which describes the Israelites' journey with Moses through the wilderness, enduring dunes, rocky paths, and scarce food and water. Those who did not remain faithful, trusting in God's promise, did not enter God's rest. This passage stresses faith and the rest God has promised to those who, in faith, overcome the trials of this life filled with challenges, temptations, and struggles.
Revelation 3:5 shows us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot earn our salvation through our actions; rather, this rest is dependent on accepting the grace and redemption offered in Christ, works that were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-8 states that all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This time is still to come; only true believers will be able to resist this hour of temptation that is foretold in Revelation 3:10. We see this same language in the concept that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
The challenge and reward are found in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 13:9-10, "He who has ears, let him hear." We can read and study the Bible without grasping the truth of its message for different reasons, truth comes from prayer. Our ears are connected to our eyes; if we cannot hear, we are also blind.
We have these verses to consider.
Before being ordained, Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 1:15
The foreknowledge of God, Acts 2:23, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26-27, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20
Predestination, Acts 4:27-28, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:10-12
God's plan.
2 Kings 19:25, Psalm 33:11, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 22:11, Isaiah 25:1, Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 46:10, Jeremiah 29:11.
See last part 8