I don't know what to call you but welcome to the site and thanks for inquiring!
You asked;
Where in the Bible does it the word say that the old Testament or even the law was given only to the Hebrew children or the Jew?
First I would like to add Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope"
Here's what you have been looking for.
Romans 9:1-4 reads, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the ( COVENANTS, AND THE GIVING OF THE LAW,) AND THE SERVICE OF GOD, AND THE PROMISES;
The law is called the "Ministry of condemnation" which refers to the Old Covenant, particularly the Mosaic Law.
We find that in 2 Corinthians 3:7-9.
It was called this because it exposed sin and pronounced judgment, highlighting mans inability to achieve righteousness by their own efforts.
Israel displayed that as any other people would have.
Without this failure and documentation we wouldn't even know it and wouldn't turn away from our own unfruitful efforts.
This ministry displayed even with God in their midst and as a husband to them man's nature remains fallen.
There is no rebirth!
One must be born again by the Spirit of Christ who ushered in the new covenant by his blood shed on the cross.
There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
Jacob was chosen of God over his older brother Essau which goes against tradition. Deuteronomy 21:15-17.
This is so the program and purpose of God, may be shown through this individual birth. "being chosen not of works"
Jacob's life is a life of wrestling against the grace of God from his birth onwards and he prevails by the grace of God.
Paul is describing the birth of these two individuals as being the living model of God's election program.
He chose the youngest (Jacob) "that goes against tradition" to be the model of his program while they were in the womb where neither having done any good or evil,
This is what Paul is saying in Romans 9:11-12.
The purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Israel is the initial recipient of that grace to be on display to a lost world and open the door for the Gentiles under the new covenant.
The old covenant (ministration of condemnation) serves its purpose by condemning all to bring all who would come to Christ.
When the fulness of the Gentiles be come in God focus will return to Israel "The Nation" to bring them under the new covenant when he take away their blindness and they call on his name during the Great Tribulation period.
Romans 9:11 has nothing to do with a people chosen before the world began.
It speaks of his purpose and his way and means for salvation for that nation
It speaks of God's WAY!
His program being administrated by grace chosen over "Reward being triggered by works".
God's elected way, Not his elected people. is what's in focus here.
The way the Replacement Theologist interpret the end times concerning the promises made out to Israel.
Gabriel's promise to Mary about Jesus inheriting the throne of his father David points to a literal political throne, not just a heavenly one. Since that throne did not exist during Christ's first coming, its establishment must be future.
A consistent, literal hermeneutic leads to a premillennial, dispensational view of prophecy. In contrast, the more one leans towards allegorical interpretation, the more one is likely to favor amillennial or other less-literal views.
Some Covenant Theologist say Israel lost their prominent position in Gods program because of the rejection of their Messiah.
However, when you mention the faithfulness of God and his holy name at stake then they say "No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham.
The rebuttal to that is that same Paul said in Romans 9:3-4
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
However, Israel unfaithfulness throughout history never altered Gods plans of redemption for the nation because he is a God that cannot lie.
God has done to Israel what he said he would do to them in Leviticus 26:1-41.
Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
In this present dispensation of grace, the believer in Christ is part of the Body of Christ, not "spiritual Israel." Scripture makes a clear distinction between God's covenant promises to Israel and the mystery revealed to Paul for the Church. Israel was given covenants tied to land, law, kingdom, and priesthood ( Gen. 17:7-8; Exod. 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34). These covenants are never transferred to Gentiles or to the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul says believers today are made "fellowheirs" in a new, unprophesied program ( Eph. 3:1-6), not inheritors of Israel's covenants.
Romans 9:4 states that the covenants "pertain" to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Paul confirms this distinction in Ephesians 2:11-12: before Christ, Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise." Now, in Christ, we are "made nigh by the blood of Christ" (v. 13), but not by becoming Israel. Instead, Jew and Gentile are joined into "one new man" (v. 15), the Body of Christ, which is distinct from Israel's prophetic promises.
The Body of Christ's blessings are spiritual, located "in heavenly places in Christ" ( Eph. 1:3), not earthly as Israel's kingdom promises ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). Paul stresses in Galatians 3:28 that in this dispensation "there is neither Jew nor Greek," showing the old covenantal distinctions are set aside in Christ.
Israel's promises of land and kingdom remain future ( Rom. 11:25-29). God has not abandoned Israel but postponed their program until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. The Church today is not Israel redefined, but a distinct entity created by the revelation of the mystery ( Col. 1:25-27). To merge the two erases God's faithfulness to His covenants with Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ's calling.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ( John 6:45).
( 1 John 2:23) states: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Both these verses show that in reality; all those who are "true Israel" ( Romans 9:6) are those who are believers in God's only Son being the true Messiah. There are several things we can learn from this; the first and most obvious being that we can't separate the Godhead or choose to accept either the Old or New Testament by themselves as they are interchangeable and inextricably connected to the same Source. This situation is highlighted with those who don't like the behavior of God the Father in the O.T.; who create a god in their own imagination who only consists of the loving sounding verses Jesus spoke.
Of course this takes some cherry picking and wholesale bypass of say; an entire chapter dedicated to calling out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees; for example.
Another issue here is to conclude that God of the O.T. was only concerned with the law and judgment; and in the New Testament it is all about grace. This probably is easiest to come up with when we look at the Sermon on the Mount and diminish it to moral platitudes or somehow divorce the meaning from the Old Testament. When we look at almost all of the O.T.; there was a repeated and unavoidable meaning in the text of God's mercy or wrath in regard to blessings and cursings. The emphasis of the law can only be gleaned from the earlier books of the Pantateuch; we certainly see prophetic statements about Christ and His coming mission to Gentiles as well as Jews; as well as God being weary of the pomp and circumstance of Israel's offerings when they were caught up in adulterous and idolatrous behaviors. GOd spoke of a place of prayer for all nations ( Isaiah 56:7) as the ultimate Temple meaning.
c. Romans 9:19-33. Here begins Paul's introduction of the Jews (& Gentiles) salvation. The same God Who has Power to make and use some people for honorable use and others for baser use, can also be justified in sending "vessels of His wrath" to destruction. Why are they 'vessels of wrath'? Because God endured with much patience for their repentance (v22); that they refused Him, they then were judged as fit for hell. If God had already appointed (elected) some to Heaven and some to Hell, there is absolutely no need for any "longsuffering" by God, because their destinies are certain as appointed by God. But God waits for all to turn to Him - and this is the anguish of both the heart of God and the apostle here.
That said, how then does a sinner respond to this Gospel of Salvation, or does he not respond, since that means he has contributed in some way to God's Gift? I agree, we are indeed children of wrath, lost & debased as wretched sinners without hope. And I believe that it can only be God by His Spirit, Who can draw a sinner to Christ and His Cross ( John 6:44). Is this sinner who is being drawn, one of the elect foreordained by God to salvation, or is the sinner any person who is under concern and conviction now being drawn to the Cross? Someone could say, referring to my last clause, that if a sinner is concerned/convicted then he is contributing to God's salvation. Likewise, if a convicted sinner receives Christ as His Savior, he is somehow adding to his salvation. I don't believe that one is doing anything of the sort. Responding to God for the burden of sin being lifted and being given new life and hope doesn't add an iota to God's Work of Salvation. If a parent gives a gift to his child and the child responds with gratitude and joy, the gift still remains a gift with no demands or encumbrances. But if that child has to do some house chores to get that gift, then yes, it is no longer a gift but a payment. Onto Page 3.
Thanks "The Bible Alone" for sharing your views on this (referring to your deleted posts) and also to this new one which essentially shares your same conclusions. If I might deal with some of the pertinent points you raised in your first posts, since I had prepared my comments in anticipation and I believe are still relevant.
As well, this Site has made some major changes where once we were able to view all the comment pages, but now restricted to just one, probably because of the burden on the site when so many pages are active, causing their resources to be strained or crash. As for the 2000 characters only: I appreciate this extra allowance, as many years ago, I believe we were only given 1000 characters, thereby having to resort to several pages to give a suitable succinct response. So now to my response to you (drafted yesterday):
a. Romans 9:1-3. I agree, Paul's anguish was for his kinsmen; that he would rather suffer under God's Judgement if that meant their salvation. These verses do speak of the salvation matter concerning Israel.
b. Romans 9:4-18. A long discourse as Paul rehearses Israel's privileged position, their calling through Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, and of course, God's prerogative to elect Jacob over Esau, for Moses to view the Form of God, and employing Pharaoh to do God's bidding. In all this, the refrain is, 'God will show compassion, mercy, even hardening' to whomever He wills'. Nothing here about saving or rejecting anyone for salvation, except to show God's Work as He chooses to perform for His Purposes and Glory. Onto Page 2.
And we could also include Romans 9:17,18, concerning Pharaoh. As Moses was shown mercy by God for the revelation of Himself, so God had also raised up Pharaoh, hardening his heart against the children of Israel so as to declare to all God's Power. Again, we cannot use any of these examples to demonstrate that certain individuals are elected to salvation based on God's indiscriminate choosing, but these examples show that God alone, for His Own reasons, selected Israel to be His Elect, for Moses to see God's Glory, and for Pharaoh to be used of God to demonstrate that He alone was God and that none else, even the god-like Pharaoh, could ever be compared to Him.
May I give you a three verses, asking for your understanding? John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. About whom are Jesus, Paul and Peter speaking in these verses? GBU.
Hello "The Bible Alone" and thanks for sharing that and since you addressed it to both "Mr Spencer and others", I would like to comment if I may.
You gave Romans 3:9-18 (taken from Psalm 14:1-4) to show that both Jew and Gentile are under sin, that no one can escape this awful reality & bondage.
You also quoted Romans 9:14-16,22, presumably to support the belief that it is God Who shows mercy on those whom He elects to be His people. When we read Romans chapter 9, we see Paul agonizing over his kinsmen. They were indeed blessed, having received the Law, the adoption, the Covenants, & the Promises, yet still fell far short before their God. Through Isaac & his seed would the Promise be established and not through Ishmael (son of the flesh).
Again, God selects (or, elects) Jacob over Esau, that the "elder shall serve the younger", which seems totally incompatible to the law of inheritance & rights, and seemingly unrighteous of God to make such an appointment. Paul then goes on to give the example of Moses ( Exodus 33:13-19), where God says in v19, "and (I) will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
I share this to show that this passage has nothing to do with salvation from sin, but of election of Israel through Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (to the exclusion of all others). And with Moses, a special granting of Mercy to have a limited sight of God's Glory. So the LORD could say to him that He would be gracious and merciful to Moses to reveal His Glory, as He could do to some and not to others. Onto Page 2.
God did not Predestinate certain individuals to be saved BECAUSE He KNEW they would come to Him. This is what God KNEW about any and all of mankind, including you and me:
Romans 3:9-18 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
God KNEW that NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE would come to Him apart from His Sovereign Mercy in PREDESTINATING a Remnant chosen by His Election of Grace, throughout time and throughout the World, to be saved. Why? because apart from God's action in salvation, we are ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD and in Rebellion against God in Body and Soul.
Romans 9:14-16 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 2:29 is frequently used to say "true Israel is spiritual, therefore the church is spiritual Israel." But Paul is speaking in Romans 2:17 to Jews-people "called a Jew" under the Old Testament law. Israel's outward circumcision had become worthless through disobedience ( Rom 2:23-25). True covenant Jews are those circumcised in heart ( Deut 10:16), not just outwardly.
Paul is addressing unbelieving Israel, not redefining the church. In Romans 9:6-11, he describes removing faithless Jews ("dead branches")-but does not replace them with Gentiles. The "doers of the law" were not Gentiles, nor the church ( Rom 3:19-21). Spiritual Israel in the New Testament is believing Israel under the new covenant ( Heb 8:8-12).
Jesus declared in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom would be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to a believing Israelite nation-not the body of Christ. The NT replaces the OT within Israel's program, but the church is separate, revealed as the "mystery" apart from covenant promises.
Regarding the word "adoption" in the Bible. Please note the following: 1 John 3:2a Beloved, now are we the sons of God...
How do we become the sons of God according to the Scripture? Only by the New Birth - John 3:7b ...Ye must be born again. 1Peter 1:23a Being born again... Even in todays venacular there is certainly a major difference in being born, and being adopted.
Now in Romans 8:23b ... waiting for the adoption. It is clear according to Scripture that the moment we are born again that we are presently sons of God, so what is meant by our waiting to be adopted? Adoption in Bible times had a different application. The Jewish tradition, and other Middle East cultures of the day was that when your natural born son became of age, he would go through a celebrated ceremonial practice and be adopted by his own father. This was not to place the son into the family, but rather to bless the natural born son, with the recognition of now being mature. Now, this adopted son was blessed with full rights and had authority. The adopted (mature) son's word now had the same authority as the father. He was no longer under tutors and instructors. No longer could the servant(s) of the family have authority over the child, rather now the adopted (mature) son had full authority over the servant(s). Galatians 4:1,2, 5, 7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord over all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. read v. 5&7. Being predestinated unto the adoption of sons refers to the fact that every born again child of God, is to become mature in the faith. No where in Scripture is it said that God predestinates people to hell or heaven. Every time the word "predestination" is used in any form, it always refers to us becoming like Christ.
I think that you err greatly in your thinking on this subject.
Scripture does not support the idea that God has two peoples-one earthly (Jews) and one heavenly (Church) or two gospels-one fore the Jews that differs from the one for the church.
This idea you are promoting is the presupposition of John N. Darby who created dispensationalism an promulgated it in his lifetime (1800-1860) from when he was a young man (1830's) on and those who adopt a dispensational viewpoint blanket Scripture with this same presupposition when approaching understanding of the Word of God.
It is clear in Scripture that the new heavens and new earth will be united after Jesus returns and that those who inhabit these realms with The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will be the elect angels (and any other holy spiritual beings) and redeemed elect humans. Those who remain Jews and do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah and Lord will be cast into the lake of fire with all other unbelievers, because "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:6) "Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (vs. 7) That is They which are children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted as seed". (vs. 8)
In Romans 11 Paul says that God has not cast away his people HE FOREKNEW (which is the remnant, those elected to salvation in Christ Jesus) Vs. 2, 5. In vs. 23 Paul speaks that those of Israel who are grafted back in are only those who believe in Jesus, those who continue in unbelief will not be re-graftedm.
Vs. 26 speaks of how "all" Israel will be saved. By believing in the same gospel as the Gentiles who were grafted into the same olive tree as believing Jews of Paul's day. Because not all who are of Israel are included in Israel ( Rom. 9:6), only the remnant will be saved -those who believe the gospel and are re-grafted and take part in the one Kingdom.
Covenants: The New Covenant; Christ and the church
Matthew 5:17 says: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
This is followed by the statement For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ( Matt. 5:18).
This; along with other statements on moral implications of our thoughts along with our actions and the fact that righeousness had to exceed the Pharisees to make it into the Kingdom of heaven ( Matt. 5:20) certainly leaves us to pause a moment in reflection.
The law; of course is our schoolmaster ( Gal. 3:24) and of course we no longer live under the ceremonial laws and the Saturday Sabbath (although I realize there is dissention on that latter subject I won't get into that here).
Perhaps we need to consider how important the law is now that we are under grace. Life only comes through the Spirit and that is given to us because of the atoning sacrifice of the Son so that He could overlook our own state and the Father would see Him in us and working through us. This is the primary focus I am attempting to discuss; namely how those in the O.T. experientially dwelt among God's presence but not all were "true Israel". ( Romans 9:6). This rebellion led to the unnatural death of the entire first generation in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land besides Joshua and Caleb; and Moses would live long enough just to see it from a distance before passing from this earth. This fact alone is worth some consideration; namely that foreign nations had dread and fear of the God of Israel; so that in particular many centuries later when Jonah was commissioned to preach to Nineveh there was a national reformation of a pagan nation; along with those in the boat when he decided to sail to the furthest location from where he was called. Food for thought. Somehow Israel was seduced by foreign gods.
Romans 11:8 does say that is God who gave the Jews their blindness (stupor) so that they will not see, nor will they be able to hear and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, I think this clears up this discrepency between us. God gave people over to their unbelief and rebellion as Romans 1 speaks to. I think it is important to understand that nothing happens that God does not ordain to occur. He may not directly cause some things, such as sin, but in His plan for creation, as the Absolute Sovereign over all. Nothing happens that He did not always know and allow to occur. But at times, He does directly cause things. to occur, and in this case, Scripture does say that God caused the stupor so that the Jews would not see and believe.
Paul, before he was martyred, saw this occur among his brethren and it grieved him very much ( Romans 9:1-5). God did reveal to Paul why this happened as we read in Romans 11. I think it is difficult for any of us to understand or even approve of God hardening some for His purposes as Romans 9 tells us, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden." As believers, we need to humble ourselves to the truth of what Scriptures teach us even when what is taught disagrees with our human sense of justice, right and wrong, and moral sensibilities.
For the record here, I believe that there has always been just one people of God-those who believe on Him and trust in Him, whether, Noah, Abraham, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, the apostles and all Christian believers through time. It is the believing Jews from all time along with the believing Gentiles (such as Rahab, Ruth) from the beginning of creation to the end of time that are God's people. You will read in the epistle of Peter and in Revelation where those who believe in Jesus are a kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation, royal people, just as the O.T. speaks of Israel in the same way.
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed ofAbraham? so am I.
Because of Abraham, we received the blessings through Jesus Christ of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing ofAbrahammight come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We are bless to receive blessings of being Abraham's seed .
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are yeAbraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now Jesus Christ is made of the seed of David in the flesh.
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of theseedof David according to the flesh;
Galatians 3:16
Now toAbrahamand his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
I truly believe that Jesus Christ is the first true Jew.
2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that JesusChristoftheseedofDavid was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
The first covenant that will run through Israel.
Genesis 15:18
In the same day theLordmade acovenantwith Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Some would say, " here it is, we are Spirit Jews and inherit all of Israel's covenants
.
Romans 8:17
And if children, thenheirs;heirsof God, and joint-heirswith Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, andheirsaccording to the promise.
A Gentile is definitely not called a unsaved person. A Gentile is a none physical Jew living on this planet earth. According to God in Heaven, we have the Jews and we have the rest of the people that are Gentiles living on this earth. Jews are part of the Twelve Tribes of Israel .
Genesis 49:28
All these are thetwelvetribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
The Gentiles never had the Law in the Old Testament.
Romans 2:14
For when theGentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Because the Gentiles did not believe in God in the Old Testament, they were called blasphemy.
Romans 2:24
For the name of God is blasphemed among theGentiles through you, as it is written.
The Gentiles had there own righteousness.
Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That theGentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Jesus Christ called the Gentiles dogs.
Matthew 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet thedogseat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Because the fall of Israel, the Gentiles are blessed with the gospel of grace.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto theGentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The Gentiles now has the gospel.
Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to theGentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of theGentilesmight be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Should a Christian pray for someone to die because of sin or teaching another doctrine ? ?
Peter wanted to kill one of the high priest' s servant when Jesus was taken .
Jesus Christ was not having anyone to fight for him, he stopped it right away.
John 18:10
Then SimonPeterhaving a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his rightear. The servant's name was Malchus.
Apostle Paul pray that the young man should be taken by Satan because of the relationship between him and his stepmother . I truly believe, Apostle Paul regret saying that and repented.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one untoSatanfor the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I had a Pastor that prayed that God would take away his backsliding sister, she was a bad testimony for the church. Years past on, my Pastor wife passed away and he got remarried and then my Pastor died. I loved the man, but I think he man a mistake. God will love who he wants to love.
Romans 9:13
As it is written,Jacobhave I loved, but Esau have I hated.
We will never know God's thoughts. I can never look at someone and say because they said this and that, they should never live. It's God choice to let Satan to take us out.
Isaiah 55:8
Formythoughtsare not yourthoughts, neither are your waysmyways, saith theLord.
May we all live a great life with Jesus Christ and continues the race and finish it in Faith.
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
Thanks GiGi for this further submission on "Will all be saved?". That was very interesting to read, even as you shared from the writings of those men. There was much I could agree with, and of course, some things that could be debated.
But if I was to narrow down onto one particular 'stand-out' for me from those ten parts, it would be Romans 9:14-23 (as given). Whereas I would have actually referenced the whole subject matter given in Romans 9:1-24: where the apostle was speaking about Israel, examples from their history, God's Intervention, an imagined question proffered, & finally to Gentiles who would also be recipients of God's Mercy & riches. Blessings.
"The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is. What does God will more than saving all?
The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy ( Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation ( 1 Corinthians 1:29)."
Therefore this perspective would say that God desires all to be saved but this "desire" is fundamentally different than what God ultimately determines or decrees to happen.
(2) All Persons Without Distinction. This perspective views that when Paul explains that God desires "all people" to be saved he is not referring to all persons without exception, but to all persons without distinction. In other words, Paul is not referring to God's desire for all individuals who have ever lived, but to all kinds of people. God is not only the savior of Jewish people, but of non-Jewish people as well.
After explaining that we should pray for "all people" because God desires "all people" to be saved because Jesus gave himself as a ransom for "all people," Paul concludes with this: "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth," 1 Tim 2:7. Why does Paul need to insert that little parenthetical oath (I swear I'm not making this up!). Likely because so few of the early Christians believed that people who were not Jewish could actually be saved.
In Acts 15, there has to be an entire church council held to figure out whether or not its okay for Gentiles to become Christians.
Before being regenerated we obey our sinful nature, which we are slaves to and we disobey God, who we do not wish please nor can we seek Him, desire Him, call on Him, or do any righteous act while aliened from God as His enemy and our stubborn resistance to believe Him, though we know He exists, as He has revealed Himself to humanity. Humans cannot please God for every aspect of themselves that contributes to their decisions, even to do good to others, is tainted by sin. Any actions we may consider to be righteous can never erase any of our own sin nor can we be reconciled to God by our own acts of righteousness. Romans 9:32 says that humans try to establish their own righteousness before God by obeying the law, but God does not accept any of it. This is because, as James 1:2 says, that if one obeys all of the law except one time disobeying one requirement of the law that person is guilty of breaking all of the law as far as God is concerned.
So, then, every one of us are guilty of all the law before God because we resist Him in our ways, words and work to circumvent His authority and sovereignty continually. We are at enmity to God and will not submit to His rule and reign in our lives and hearts, nor can unregenerate flesh do so. ( Romans 8:7)
Fallen humans are without God, without hope, without righteousness, without redemption, without the ability to contribute anything towards their salvation. Fallen humans are lost, worthless to God, alienated from Him, separated from Him, unable to come to Him unless God chooses a person to be saved by election, by God's sovereign choice. ( Romans 9:16)
Scripture makes clear in so many passages that unregenerated cannot, due to lack of ability, and will not, due to preferring sin to obedience, effect a remedy their fallen state before God. It is a sovereign free act of God that saves anyone. We cannot compel God to save us, neither can we choose Him in our unredeemed state.
Day 31 January 32, 2025 Pressing Forward Philippians 3:13-14 KJV West Angeles Church Consecration Calendar
I pray for Perseverance to run the race set before me to recieve the prize of the high calling of God and Holy Bible examples.
Philippians 3:13 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Reaching for obedience in Jesus Christ and to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. To have faith beyond measure. To walk by faith not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV, Romans 8:2 KJV .To do and say. My faith reading holy bible, trusting God has giving me opportunity to run the race set before " Words Spoken and Written by me of God."
Philippians 3:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To receive the prize having faith." Romans 8:2 KJV, Romans 9:16 KJV
A closer look at Romans 9:1-12 with old testament references.
Parr 1
Romans 9:7-11 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
I've seen some
Replacement theologist use these verses to assign those of the flesh to Israel and they assign "Children" of the promise to the Church.
This follows after they mis interpret Romans 9:6.
However it's clear that the passages in " Romans 9:1-12 " is making a distinction between the children of promise and the children of the flesh. "BOTH BIOLOGICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM.
Here's the old testament passages of scripture these verses in Romans 9 is referring to.
Romans 9:9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
OT reference.
Genesis 17:16-21.
Genesis 18:10-14.
Here we see the promise of Issac taking place and the child of the flesh that also Metaphorically represents the works of the flesh refused. Why? It's not according to God's purpose!
Note;
Abraham had 6 other sons by Keturah, "his concubine" Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah:
These are also children of the flesh.
Romans 9::10-11
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
OT reference. Genesis 25:21-23
Isaac blesses Jacob and Esau.
Genesis 27:29
Genesis 27:37.
This has nothing to do with Salvation in regards of Limited Atonement, The Church or Replacement theology.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
About your inquiry about the "anathema" that Paul says in 1 Cor:16-22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."
There two ancient greek words that are very similar, that they are both wtitten in Engl as "anathema" but in grk that "e" is written with a different grk vowel. The first is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-thee-ma" and it means something which is dedicated to God, eg a sacrifice or a gift to God. The second (which is the one written in 1 Cor) is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-theh-ma" and it had several meanings in anc grk. 1. something that is offered to God for distruction, eg a sacrifice which will be burned, 2. people or things (including cities) that were to be distructed. Often these two are the meaning of the word in the OT, 3. something that is separated for distruction, ...
In Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" the precise translation is "that myself to be separated (for distruction) from Christ".
In 1 Cor 16:22 many translate it as "if any man does not love Lord Jesus Christ let him be separated for distruction (if he eventually doesn't believe in Him and repent in his life). And this seems to be the right interpretation of that verse.
And eventually in the following centuries the word anathema came to mean "a curse/cursed person/thing", and in the church terminology the "excommunication(separation) from the church".
I don't know what to call you but welcome to the site and thanks for inquiring!
You asked;
Where in the Bible does it the word say that the old Testament or even the law was given only to the Hebrew children or the Jew?
First I would like to add Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope"
Here's what you have been looking for.
Romans 9:1-4 reads, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the ( COVENANTS, AND THE GIVING OF THE LAW,) AND THE SERVICE OF GOD, AND THE PROMISES;
The law is called the "Ministry of condemnation" which refers to the Old Covenant, particularly the Mosaic Law.
We find that in 2 Corinthians 3:7-9.
It was called this because it exposed sin and pronounced judgment, highlighting mans inability to achieve righteousness by their own efforts.
Israel displayed that as any other people would have.
Without this failure and documentation we wouldn't even know it and wouldn't turn away from our own unfruitful efforts.
This ministry displayed even with God in their midst and as a husband to them man's nature remains fallen.
There is no rebirth!
One must be born again by the Spirit of Christ who ushered in the new covenant by his blood shed on the cross.
God bless.
There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
Blessings Brother!
We see that Jacob wrestle against God.
Even while he was in the womb!
Jacob was chosen of God over his older brother Essau which goes against tradition. Deuteronomy 21:15-17.
This is so the program and purpose of God, may be shown through this individual birth. "being chosen not of works"
Jacob's life is a life of wrestling against the grace of God from his birth onwards and he prevails by the grace of God.
Paul is describing the birth of these two individuals as being the living model of God's election program.
He chose the youngest (Jacob) "that goes against tradition" to be the model of his program while they were in the womb where neither having done any good or evil,
This is what Paul is saying in Romans 9:11-12.
The purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Israel is the initial recipient of that grace to be on display to a lost world and open the door for the Gentiles under the new covenant.
The old covenant (ministration of condemnation) serves its purpose by condemning all to bring all who would come to Christ.
When the fulness of the Gentiles be come in God focus will return to Israel "The Nation" to bring them under the new covenant when he take away their blindness and they call on his name during the Great Tribulation period.
Romans 9:11 has nothing to do with a people chosen before the world began.
It speaks of his purpose and his way and means for salvation for that nation
It speaks of God's WAY!
His program being administrated by grace chosen over "Reward being triggered by works".
God's elected way, Not his elected people. is what's in focus here.
Blessings
Covenant Theology.
The way the Replacement Theologist interpret the end times concerning the promises made out to Israel.
Gabriel's promise to Mary about Jesus inheriting the throne of his father David points to a literal political throne, not just a heavenly one. Since that throne did not exist during Christ's first coming, its establishment must be future.
A consistent, literal hermeneutic leads to a premillennial, dispensational view of prophecy. In contrast, the more one leans towards allegorical interpretation, the more one is likely to favor amillennial or other less-literal views.
Some Covenant Theologist say Israel lost their prominent position in Gods program because of the rejection of their Messiah.
However, when you mention the faithfulness of God and his holy name at stake then they say "No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham.
The rebuttal to that is that same Paul said in Romans 9:3-4
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
However, Israel unfaithfulness throughout history never altered Gods plans of redemption for the nation because he is a God that cannot lie.
God has done to Israel what he said he would do to them in Leviticus 26:1-41.
See part 4.
1. Identity: Who We Are
Body of Christ, not Israel
Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
Grace and Peace
Who we are in the Body of Christ.
In this present dispensation of grace, the believer in Christ is part of the Body of Christ, not "spiritual Israel." Scripture makes a clear distinction between God's covenant promises to Israel and the mystery revealed to Paul for the Church. Israel was given covenants tied to land, law, kingdom, and priesthood ( Gen. 17:7-8; Exod. 19:5-6; Jer. 31:31-34). These covenants are never transferred to Gentiles or to the Body of Christ. Instead, Paul says believers today are made "fellowheirs" in a new, unprophesied program ( Eph. 3:1-6), not inheritors of Israel's covenants.
Romans 9:4 states that the covenants "pertain" to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Paul confirms this distinction in Ephesians 2:11-12: before Christ, Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise." Now, in Christ, we are "made nigh by the blood of Christ" (v. 13), but not by becoming Israel. Instead, Jew and Gentile are joined into "one new man" (v. 15), the Body of Christ, which is distinct from Israel's prophetic promises.
The Body of Christ's blessings are spiritual, located "in heavenly places in Christ" ( Eph. 1:3), not earthly as Israel's kingdom promises ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). Paul stresses in Galatians 3:28 that in this dispensation "there is neither Jew nor Greek," showing the old covenantal distinctions are set aside in Christ.
Israel's promises of land and kingdom remain future ( Rom. 11:25-29). God has not abandoned Israel but postponed their program until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. The Church today is not Israel redefined, but a distinct entity created by the revelation of the mystery ( Col. 1:25-27). To merge the two erases God's faithfulness to His covenants with Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ's calling.
Grace and Peace.
( 1 John 2:23) states: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Both these verses show that in reality; all those who are "true Israel" ( Romans 9:6) are those who are believers in God's only Son being the true Messiah. There are several things we can learn from this; the first and most obvious being that we can't separate the Godhead or choose to accept either the Old or New Testament by themselves as they are interchangeable and inextricably connected to the same Source. This situation is highlighted with those who don't like the behavior of God the Father in the O.T.; who create a god in their own imagination who only consists of the loving sounding verses Jesus spoke.
Of course this takes some cherry picking and wholesale bypass of say; an entire chapter dedicated to calling out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees; for example.
Another issue here is to conclude that God of the O.T. was only concerned with the law and judgment; and in the New Testament it is all about grace. This probably is easiest to come up with when we look at the Sermon on the Mount and diminish it to moral platitudes or somehow divorce the meaning from the Old Testament. When we look at almost all of the O.T.; there was a repeated and unavoidable meaning in the text of God's mercy or wrath in regard to blessings and cursings. The emphasis of the law can only be gleaned from the earlier books of the Pantateuch; we certainly see prophetic statements about Christ and His coming mission to Gentiles as well as Jews; as well as God being weary of the pomp and circumstance of Israel's offerings when they were caught up in adulterous and idolatrous behaviors. GOd spoke of a place of prayer for all nations ( Isaiah 56:7) as the ultimate Temple meaning.
c. Romans 9:19-33. Here begins Paul's introduction of the Jews (& Gentiles) salvation. The same God Who has Power to make and use some people for honorable use and others for baser use, can also be justified in sending "vessels of His wrath" to destruction. Why are they 'vessels of wrath'? Because God endured with much patience for their repentance (v22); that they refused Him, they then were judged as fit for hell. If God had already appointed (elected) some to Heaven and some to Hell, there is absolutely no need for any "longsuffering" by God, because their destinies are certain as appointed by God. But God waits for all to turn to Him - and this is the anguish of both the heart of God and the apostle here.
That said, how then does a sinner respond to this Gospel of Salvation, or does he not respond, since that means he has contributed in some way to God's Gift? I agree, we are indeed children of wrath, lost & debased as wretched sinners without hope. And I believe that it can only be God by His Spirit, Who can draw a sinner to Christ and His Cross ( John 6:44). Is this sinner who is being drawn, one of the elect foreordained by God to salvation, or is the sinner any person who is under concern and conviction now being drawn to the Cross? Someone could say, referring to my last clause, that if a sinner is concerned/convicted then he is contributing to God's salvation. Likewise, if a convicted sinner receives Christ as His Savior, he is somehow adding to his salvation. I don't believe that one is doing anything of the sort. Responding to God for the burden of sin being lifted and being given new life and hope doesn't add an iota to God's Work of Salvation. If a parent gives a gift to his child and the child responds with gratitude and joy, the gift still remains a gift with no demands or encumbrances. But if that child has to do some house chores to get that gift, then yes, it is no longer a gift but a payment. Onto Page 3.
As well, this Site has made some major changes where once we were able to view all the comment pages, but now restricted to just one, probably because of the burden on the site when so many pages are active, causing their resources to be strained or crash. As for the 2000 characters only: I appreciate this extra allowance, as many years ago, I believe we were only given 1000 characters, thereby having to resort to several pages to give a suitable succinct response. So now to my response to you (drafted yesterday):
a. Romans 9:1-3. I agree, Paul's anguish was for his kinsmen; that he would rather suffer under God's Judgement if that meant their salvation. These verses do speak of the salvation matter concerning Israel.
b. Romans 9:4-18. A long discourse as Paul rehearses Israel's privileged position, their calling through Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, and of course, God's prerogative to elect Jacob over Esau, for Moses to view the Form of God, and employing Pharaoh to do God's bidding. In all this, the refrain is, 'God will show compassion, mercy, even hardening' to whomever He wills'. Nothing here about saving or rejecting anyone for salvation, except to show God's Work as He chooses to perform for His Purposes and Glory. Onto Page 2.
And we could also include Romans 9:17,18, concerning Pharaoh. As Moses was shown mercy by God for the revelation of Himself, so God had also raised up Pharaoh, hardening his heart against the children of Israel so as to declare to all God's Power. Again, we cannot use any of these examples to demonstrate that certain individuals are elected to salvation based on God's indiscriminate choosing, but these examples show that God alone, for His Own reasons, selected Israel to be His Elect, for Moses to see God's Glory, and for Pharaoh to be used of God to demonstrate that He alone was God and that none else, even the god-like Pharaoh, could ever be compared to Him.
May I give you a three verses, asking for your understanding? John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. About whom are Jesus, Paul and Peter speaking in these verses? GBU.
You gave Romans 3:9-18 (taken from Psalm 14:1-4) to show that both Jew and Gentile are under sin, that no one can escape this awful reality & bondage.
You also quoted Romans 9:14-16,22, presumably to support the belief that it is God Who shows mercy on those whom He elects to be His people. When we read Romans chapter 9, we see Paul agonizing over his kinsmen. They were indeed blessed, having received the Law, the adoption, the Covenants, & the Promises, yet still fell far short before their God. Through Isaac & his seed would the Promise be established and not through Ishmael (son of the flesh).
Again, God selects (or, elects) Jacob over Esau, that the "elder shall serve the younger", which seems totally incompatible to the law of inheritance & rights, and seemingly unrighteous of God to make such an appointment. Paul then goes on to give the example of Moses ( Exodus 33:13-19), where God says in v19, "and (I) will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
I share this to show that this passage has nothing to do with salvation from sin, but of election of Israel through Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (to the exclusion of all others). And with Moses, a special granting of Mercy to have a limited sight of God's Glory. So the LORD could say to him that He would be gracious and merciful to Moses to reveal His Glory, as He could do to some and not to others. Onto Page 2.
With all due respect Mr. Spencer and others,
God did not Predestinate certain individuals to be saved BECAUSE He KNEW they would come to Him. This is what God KNEW about any and all of mankind, including you and me:
Romans 3:9-18 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
God KNEW that NO ONE, let me say that again, NO ONE would come to Him apart from His Sovereign Mercy in PREDESTINATING a Remnant chosen by His Election of Grace, throughout time and throughout the World, to be saved. Why? because apart from God's action in salvation, we are ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD and in Rebellion against God in Body and Soul.
Romans 9:14-16 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Election=Hope! Praise God!
Page 3 - Romans 2 and Spiritual Israel
Romans 2:29 is frequently used to say "true Israel is spiritual, therefore the church is spiritual Israel." But Paul is speaking in Romans 2:17 to Jews-people "called a Jew" under the Old Testament law. Israel's outward circumcision had become worthless through disobedience ( Rom 2:23-25). True covenant Jews are those circumcised in heart ( Deut 10:16), not just outwardly.
Paul is addressing unbelieving Israel, not redefining the church. In Romans 9:6-11, he describes removing faithless Jews ("dead branches")-but does not replace them with Gentiles. The "doers of the law" were not Gentiles, nor the church ( Rom 3:19-21). Spiritual Israel in the New Testament is believing Israel under the new covenant ( Heb 8:8-12).
Jesus declared in Matthew 21:43 that the kingdom would be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to a believing Israelite nation-not the body of Christ. The NT replaces the OT within Israel's program, but the church is separate, revealed as the "mystery" apart from covenant promises.
God Bless
How do we become the sons of God according to the Scripture? Only by the New Birth - John 3:7b ...Ye must be born again. 1Peter 1:23a Being born again... Even in todays venacular there is certainly a major difference in being born, and being adopted.
Now in Romans 8:23b ... waiting for the adoption. It is clear according to Scripture that the moment we are born again that we are presently sons of God, so what is meant by our waiting to be adopted? Adoption in Bible times had a different application. The Jewish tradition, and other Middle East cultures of the day was that when your natural born son became of age, he would go through a celebrated ceremonial practice and be adopted by his own father. This was not to place the son into the family, but rather to bless the natural born son, with the recognition of now being mature. Now, this adopted son was blessed with full rights and had authority. The adopted (mature) son's word now had the same authority as the father. He was no longer under tutors and instructors. No longer could the servant(s) of the family have authority over the child, rather now the adopted (mature) son had full authority over the servant(s). Galatians 4:1,2, 5, 7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord over all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. read v. 5&7. Being predestinated unto the adoption of sons refers to the fact that every born again child of God, is to become mature in the faith. No where in Scripture is it said that God predestinates people to hell or heaven. Every time the word "predestination" is used in any form, it always refers to us becoming like Christ.
I think that you err greatly in your thinking on this subject.
Scripture does not support the idea that God has two peoples-one earthly (Jews) and one heavenly (Church) or two gospels-one fore the Jews that differs from the one for the church.
This idea you are promoting is the presupposition of John N. Darby who created dispensationalism an promulgated it in his lifetime (1800-1860) from when he was a young man (1830's) on and those who adopt a dispensational viewpoint blanket Scripture with this same presupposition when approaching understanding of the Word of God.
It is clear in Scripture that the new heavens and new earth will be united after Jesus returns and that those who inhabit these realms with The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will be the elect angels (and any other holy spiritual beings) and redeemed elect humans. Those who remain Jews and do not believe in Jesus as their Messiah and Lord will be cast into the lake of fire with all other unbelievers, because "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:6) "Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (vs. 7) That is They which are children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of promise are counted as seed". (vs. 8)
In Romans 11 Paul says that God has not cast away his people HE FOREKNEW (which is the remnant, those elected to salvation in Christ Jesus) Vs. 2, 5. In vs. 23 Paul speaks that those of Israel who are grafted back in are only those who believe in Jesus, those who continue in unbelief will not be re-graftedm.
Vs. 26 speaks of how "all" Israel will be saved. By believing in the same gospel as the Gentiles who were grafted into the same olive tree as believing Jews of Paul's day. Because not all who are of Israel are included in Israel ( Rom. 9:6), only the remnant will be saved -those who believe the gospel and are re-grafted and take part in the one Kingdom.
Matthew 5:17 says: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
This is followed by the statement For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ( Matt. 5:18).
This; along with other statements on moral implications of our thoughts along with our actions and the fact that righeousness had to exceed the Pharisees to make it into the Kingdom of heaven ( Matt. 5:20) certainly leaves us to pause a moment in reflection.
The law; of course is our schoolmaster ( Gal. 3:24) and of course we no longer live under the ceremonial laws and the Saturday Sabbath (although I realize there is dissention on that latter subject I won't get into that here).
Perhaps we need to consider how important the law is now that we are under grace. Life only comes through the Spirit and that is given to us because of the atoning sacrifice of the Son so that He could overlook our own state and the Father would see Him in us and working through us. This is the primary focus I am attempting to discuss; namely how those in the O.T. experientially dwelt among God's presence but not all were "true Israel". ( Romans 9:6). This rebellion led to the unnatural death of the entire first generation in the wilderness before entering the Promised Land besides Joshua and Caleb; and Moses would live long enough just to see it from a distance before passing from this earth. This fact alone is worth some consideration; namely that foreign nations had dread and fear of the God of Israel; so that in particular many centuries later when Jonah was commissioned to preach to Nineveh there was a national reformation of a pagan nation; along with those in the boat when he decided to sail to the furthest location from where he was called. Food for thought. Somehow Israel was seduced by foreign gods.
Romans 11:8 does say that is God who gave the Jews their blindness (stupor) so that they will not see, nor will they be able to hear and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, I think this clears up this discrepency between us. God gave people over to their unbelief and rebellion as Romans 1 speaks to. I think it is important to understand that nothing happens that God does not ordain to occur. He may not directly cause some things, such as sin, but in His plan for creation, as the Absolute Sovereign over all. Nothing happens that He did not always know and allow to occur. But at times, He does directly cause things. to occur, and in this case, Scripture does say that God caused the stupor so that the Jews would not see and believe.
Paul, before he was martyred, saw this occur among his brethren and it grieved him very much ( Romans 9:1-5). God did reveal to Paul why this happened as we read in Romans 11. I think it is difficult for any of us to understand or even approve of God hardening some for His purposes as Romans 9 tells us, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden." As believers, we need to humble ourselves to the truth of what Scriptures teach us even when what is taught disagrees with our human sense of justice, right and wrong, and moral sensibilities.
For the record here, I believe that there has always been just one people of God-those who believe on Him and trust in Him, whether, Noah, Abraham, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, the apostles and all Christian believers through time. It is the believing Jews from all time along with the believing Gentiles (such as Rahab, Ruth) from the beginning of creation to the end of time that are God's people. You will read in the epistle of Peter and in Revelation where those who believe in Jesus are a kingdom of kings and priests, a holy nation, royal people, just as the O.T. speaks of Israel in the same way.
Apostle Paul is a Jew in the flesh.
2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed ofAbraham? so am I.
Because of Abraham, we received the blessings through Jesus Christ of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing ofAbrahammight come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We are bless to receive blessings of being Abraham's seed .
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are yeAbraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now Jesus Christ is made of the seed of David in the flesh.
Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of theseedof David according to the flesh;
Galatians 3:16
Now toAbrahamand his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
I truly believe that Jesus Christ is the first true Jew.
2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that JesusChristoftheseedofDavid was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
The first covenant that will run through Israel.
Genesis 15:18
In the same day theLordmade acovenantwith Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Some would say, " here it is, we are Spirit Jews and inherit all of Israel's covenants
.
Romans 8:17
And if children, thenheirs;heirsof God, and joint-heirswith Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, andheirsaccording to the promise.
Ray in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
A Gentile is definitely not called a unsaved person. A Gentile is a none physical Jew living on this planet earth. According to God in Heaven, we have the Jews and we have the rest of the people that are Gentiles living on this earth. Jews are part of the Twelve Tribes of Israel .
Genesis 49:28
All these are thetwelvetribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
The Gentiles never had the Law in the Old Testament.
Romans 2:14
For when theGentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Because the Gentiles did not believe in God in the Old Testament, they were called blasphemy.
Romans 2:24
For the name of God is blasphemed among theGentiles through you, as it is written.
The Gentiles had there own righteousness.
Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That theGentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Jesus Christ called the Gentiles dogs.
Matthew 15:27
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet thedogseat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Because the fall of Israel, the Gentiles are blessed with the gospel of grace.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto theGentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The Gentiles now has the gospel.
Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to theGentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of theGentilesmight be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
I am a Gentiles saved by grace.
Peter wanted to kill one of the high priest' s servant when Jesus was taken .
Jesus Christ was not having anyone to fight for him, he stopped it right away.
John 18:10
Then SimonPeterhaving a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his rightear. The servant's name was Malchus.
Apostle Paul pray that the young man should be taken by Satan because of the relationship between him and his stepmother . I truly believe, Apostle Paul regret saying that and repented.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one untoSatanfor the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I had a Pastor that prayed that God would take away his backsliding sister, she was a bad testimony for the church. Years past on, my Pastor wife passed away and he got remarried and then my Pastor died. I loved the man, but I think he man a mistake. God will love who he wants to love.
Romans 9:13
As it is written,Jacobhave I loved, but Esau have I hated.
We will never know God's thoughts. I can never look at someone and say because they said this and that, they should never live. It's God choice to let Satan to take us out.
Isaiah 55:8
Formythoughtsare not yourthoughts, neither are your waysmyways, saith theLord.
May we all live a great life with Jesus Christ and continues the race and finish it in Faith.
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Heaven is waiting for all of us.
There are many verses in the Bible that show the human nature of Jesus. But also there are many verses that show the divine nature of Jesus. Some of them are many parts of John's gospel (especially the begining) such as John 1:30, John 2:19, John 3:13, John 8:58-59, John 10:30-33, John 14:9-10, John 14:23, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:22-23, 1 Cor 10:9, Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 11:12-13, Romans 9:1-5, and many other that I can not recall now. Jesus also accepted people to kneel infront of Him, something that is only permitted for God. Also compare Psalms 102:25-27 where it talks about God to Hebrews 1:10 where it talks about Jesus. Also compare Joel 3:5 to Acts 9:13. Compare Jeremiah 17:9 to Rev 2:23, etc.
So we have two kinds of scripture. One says that Jesus is human, the other says that Jesus is God. So what do we make out of these two? The obvious, that Jesus is the God, one person of the Godhead, who became man.
Lets think it in another way. We know that God loved people so much so that He sacrificed His own son for us. Now lets use another example. Suppose I love my brother and want to help Him. and the only way to help him is to give my own life for him. How does it seem to you that I would sacrifice instead of my own life, my son's life for Him to help Him? Why my son? And not myself? The most sensible thing is that I would sacrifice my own life for him, not somebody's else. That would be very egoistic. Somebody else to suffer for my intention to help somebody that I love? I think you can understand what I trying to say. So what did God do? He sacrificed Himself for us, one person out of the Godhead took on Him our nature, became a man and gave His life for us. So it is God's love that attracts people to Him. It wouldn't be love if He sacrificed somebody else, an innocent person's life, for his intention to save us. I hope I haven't done it so complicated to understand. GBU
But if I was to narrow down onto one particular 'stand-out' for me from those ten parts, it would be Romans 9:14-23 (as given). Whereas I would have actually referenced the whole subject matter given in Romans 9:1-24: where the apostle was speaking about Israel, examples from their history, God's Intervention, an imagined question proffered, & finally to Gentiles who would also be recipients of God's Mercy & riches. Blessings.
Pt. 8
John Piper explains:
"The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is. What does God will more than saving all?
The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy ( Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation ( 1 Corinthians 1:29)."
Therefore this perspective would say that God desires all to be saved but this "desire" is fundamentally different than what God ultimately determines or decrees to happen.
(2) All Persons Without Distinction. This perspective views that when Paul explains that God desires "all people" to be saved he is not referring to all persons without exception, but to all persons without distinction. In other words, Paul is not referring to God's desire for all individuals who have ever lived, but to all kinds of people. God is not only the savior of Jewish people, but of non-Jewish people as well.
After explaining that we should pray for "all people" because God desires "all people" to be saved because Jesus gave himself as a ransom for "all people," Paul concludes with this: "For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth," 1 Tim 2:7. Why does Paul need to insert that little parenthetical oath (I swear I'm not making this up!). Likely because so few of the early Christians believed that people who were not Jewish could actually be saved.
In Acts 15, there has to be an entire church council held to figure out whether or not its okay for Gentiles to become Christians.
See Pt. 9
Pt. 5
Before being regenerated we obey our sinful nature, which we are slaves to and we disobey God, who we do not wish please nor can we seek Him, desire Him, call on Him, or do any righteous act while aliened from God as His enemy and our stubborn resistance to believe Him, though we know He exists, as He has revealed Himself to humanity. Humans cannot please God for every aspect of themselves that contributes to their decisions, even to do good to others, is tainted by sin. Any actions we may consider to be righteous can never erase any of our own sin nor can we be reconciled to God by our own acts of righteousness. Romans 9:32 says that humans try to establish their own righteousness before God by obeying the law, but God does not accept any of it. This is because, as James 1:2 says, that if one obeys all of the law except one time disobeying one requirement of the law that person is guilty of breaking all of the law as far as God is concerned.
So, then, every one of us are guilty of all the law before God because we resist Him in our ways, words and work to circumvent His authority and sovereignty continually. We are at enmity to God and will not submit to His rule and reign in our lives and hearts, nor can unregenerate flesh do so. ( Romans 8:7)
Fallen humans are without God, without hope, without righteousness, without redemption, without the ability to contribute anything towards their salvation. Fallen humans are lost, worthless to God, alienated from Him, separated from Him, unable to come to Him unless God chooses a person to be saved by election, by God's sovereign choice. ( Romans 9:16)
Scripture makes clear in so many passages that unregenerated cannot, due to lack of ability, and will not, due to preferring sin to obedience, effect a remedy their fallen state before God. It is a sovereign free act of God that saves anyone. We cannot compel God to save us, neither can we choose Him in our unredeemed state.
See Pt. 6
I pray for Perseverance to run the race set before me to recieve the prize of the high calling of God and Holy Bible examples.
Philippians 3:13 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" Reaching for obedience in Jesus Christ and to recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. To have faith beyond measure. To walk by faith not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV, Romans 8:2 KJV .To do and say. My faith reading holy bible, trusting God has giving me opportunity to run the race set before " Words Spoken and Written by me of God."
Philippians 3:14 KJV
My Interpetation REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY:
" To receive the prize having faith." Romans 8:2 KJV, Romans 9:16 KJV
Examples of prize reference Holy Bible
To receive Jesus Christ God the Father
5 senses- touch, sight, hearing, taste, smell.
Spiritual Blessings
Eternal Life
Happiness
Grace
Hands to reap, return to me
Unity with God
Santification
Justification
Word Spoken and Written by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY
Parr 1
Romans 9:7-11 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
I've seen some
Replacement theologist use these verses to assign those of the flesh to Israel and they assign "Children" of the promise to the Church.
This follows after they mis interpret Romans 9:6.
However it's clear that the passages in " Romans 9:1-12 " is making a distinction between the children of promise and the children of the flesh. "BOTH BIOLOGICAL DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM.
Here's the old testament passages of scripture these verses in Romans 9 is referring to.
Romans 9:9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
OT reference.
Genesis 17:16-21.
Genesis 18:10-14.
Here we see the promise of Issac taking place and the child of the flesh that also Metaphorically represents the works of the flesh refused. Why? It's not according to God's purpose!
Note;
Abraham had 6 other sons by Keturah, "his concubine" Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah:
These are also children of the flesh.
Romans 9::10-11
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
OT reference. Genesis 25:21-23
Isaac blesses Jacob and Esau.
Genesis 27:29
Genesis 27:37.
This has nothing to do with Salvation in regards of Limited Atonement, The Church or Replacement theology.
Galatians sums this up.
See part 2.
Part 9.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
Blessings
Part 8.
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
This is what Roman 9 is talking about.
See Part 9
Romans 9:4-11.
PT 7
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
See 8
About your inquiry about the "anathema" that Paul says in 1 Cor:16-22, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."
There two ancient greek words that are very similar, that they are both wtitten in Engl as "anathema" but in grk that "e" is written with a different grk vowel. The first is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-thee-ma" and it means something which is dedicated to God, eg a sacrifice or a gift to God. The second (which is the one written in 1 Cor) is pronounced in grk as "a-na'-theh-ma" and it had several meanings in anc grk. 1. something that is offered to God for distruction, eg a sacrifice which will be burned, 2. people or things (including cities) that were to be distructed. Often these two are the meaning of the word in the OT, 3. something that is separated for distruction, ...
In Romans 9:3, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" the precise translation is "that myself to be separated (for distruction) from Christ".
In 1 Cor 16:22 many translate it as "if any man does not love Lord Jesus Christ let him be separated for distruction (if he eventually doesn't believe in Him and repent in his life). And this seems to be the right interpretation of that verse.
And eventually in the following centuries the word anathema came to mean "a curse/cursed person/thing", and in the church terminology the "excommunication(separation) from the church".