Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 311

Chris,

Pt. 3

His wisdom and counsel is beyond our ability to know and understand; and that we are to submit ourselves to His sovereignty in all these things and trust in Him as truly good, loving, gracious, and merciful. His reasons for choosing as He has are mysterious to us, but in perfect harmony with His nature. And these choices are really His business to act on and not ours to criticize.

I often think that if one must chose to believe the gospel, then what happens to those who have not heard, are too young to understand, or too impaired to discern it, too deaf to hear it, etc. Are all of these damned? I am not aware of any bible verse that speaks of an "age of accountability" for infants and children, nor that they get a pass because they cannot make an informed choice to believe. I do know that Jesus said that we are not to prevent children (including infants) to come unto Him because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, there must be a way for God's saving grace to reach these humans with regeneration and faith even though their understanding is not yet mature enough to fully understand their need to be saved from sin and the content of the gospel. Jesus also said that only those born of water and the Spirit can come into the kingdom. So how does God apply this to infants and children should they die before this "age of accountability" if they are in a state of depravity, dead in sin, separated from God, and unregenerated?

These are very profound things to consider. I know I do not have all of the answers from a biblical perspective. But I do have my viewpoint based on what I do find in Scripture. And in so many ways, a viewpoint is really what any of us have as we search the Scriptures for answers and a mindset that is like that of God in Christ.

I will leave this post for now having brought up some matters that pertain to God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself.

Have a good day in Aus.

Really the transfiguration answers all these questions. These were in the case of Elijah someone translated who never died; and Moses someone who died but whose burial spot was hidden. Nonetheless; they conversed with each other and with Christ and in some way were made known to the 3 Apostles who saw it (Peter; James and John I believe).

One could argue that Samuel was truly brought up as he spoke the truth to Saul and the witch also seemed shocked. We also have Lazarus and the rich man in hades who also conversed along with Moses again from what I remember.

Finally; we have the saints under the altar in heaven asking how long until justice comes and they were told until their fellowservants deaths were complete. We also will rule and reign with Christ; David will be also there ruling as well and obviously in some way recognizable. We also can look to the conversation of John with a fellowservant (either an angel or a deceased believer) as further evidence.

I feel it is necessary to explore this subject based on first of all the fact that only saved people are in heaven. What is most important is their unique gifting and the fruit of their service as the real essence or meaning of recognition. The outer appearance of course and the old nature is what man sees dying in this present world as we all turn to dust; the fallen state of the soul also is destined for eternity in darkness and confusion. Having been conformed to His image brings uniqueness and meaningfulness to our eternal relationships there.

Hope this helps.

Agape; Rich P

Chris

Pt. 2

But the most important aspect of all is the glory of God in being gracious to whom He determines He will be gracious to and merciful to whom He chooses to be merciful to.

So, I will begin with this because this has been on my heart in all of this discussion.

I believe that all that God does concerning creation is to bring glory to Himself. In acting on all of the perfect attributes of His divine nature He not only glorifies Himself within the Trinity, but also displays His glory to all of creation and in all that He does in time and space (all that is outside of Himself).

In my post on His sovereign grace, I spoke of how He allowed sin to dome forth in creation and how He dealt with the angels who sinned and those who did not in the first rebellion of created beings towards God.

I think that most humans would agree that God's election of the angels He would not allow to sin in the rebellion and the damnation of the fallen ones is just and righteous. Most humans have no concern that God did not chose to redeem the fallen angels nor do most humans not question that God in His wisdom and sovereignty chose to elect more angels than not to remain sinless forever.

But when it comes to humanity, humans have more concern and humanitarian attitudes concerning God sovereignly choosing some to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world. It is natural for us to feel concerned why God did not elect everyone, or that there are billions of people who will go into the lake of fire, since He is certainly capable of electing everyone and bringing all to salvation by grace, We can be disturbed by what He chose because we certainly would determine salvation to all instead of for some. This aspect of God's sovereignty baffles me, but I know that I must remember that we are His creatures and He is the Creator; that He is really more not like us than similar to us; cont. to part 3

Good Evening Chris,

It has been a busy week with plumbers, construction workers and electricians taking turns at the house. Plus, with the new baby in the house we are taking turns entertaining, holding, and helping her get to sleep until it is time for mom to feed her again.

I wanted to get back to you concerning the present conversation about regeneration, election, predestination, and salvation. This is such an important and worthwhile discussion for all believers.

First of all, we can each be so thankful to God for His sovereign grace towards us of which He saves us. We can be assured that we have been elected by God to receive all of the promises of complete redemption in His Son our Lord, Jesus Christ. So, in a very real way, we are on the other side looking back in time for us as we consider how God worked in our own lives to bring us to salvation. And that is a blessed place to be when considering this topic.

I wrote an entry today about God's sovereignty and His complete freedom in His will to bestow grace to those He would save.

If you read that you may see more of why I believe that regeneration (being born from above (jn, 3: 1-8) precedes us believing the gospel message and trusting Jesus for our salvation.

Tonight I wanted to itemize some terms that have been put forward in this thread and then exchange our views on what these terms mean biblically.

I think the best way to start is to discuss the condition of every human prior to the new birth. So, that term is often spoken of as human depravity.

Then we can speak about God's election from eternity past.

Foreknowing

Predestination,

Election

Then move on to how we come to faith in Jesus.

Calling



Regeneration,

Belief,

Repentance

Conversion

Redemption

Then we could speak about the great unmerited benefits God bestows on those who have become reborn

forgiveness of sins

justification

adoption as children of God

sanctification

glorification

Please tell me if we will we know each other in Heaven? I've heard so many views on this question! Thanks!

Hello BJGibson

Yes brother you are right that God's purpose in creating mankind was to have somebody to share ... everything He has. Nobody likes to be alone, not even God himself. The way I have understood the whole story of God and man is:

God created us in His image and after His likeness. Usually the "in His image" is interpreted that people are similar to God in certain characteristics like love, freedom, sadness, joy, feelings, cleverness, creativity, etc. Some, like me, believe that God's external appearance is similar to ours. God has a head, hands, feet, mouth, ears, etc. Some other christians do not agree.

The "after His likeness" is usually interpreted that God made people in order to become like Him in character. So in the garden of Eden God was coming in the afternoons and was talking to Adam and Eve. In that way Adam and his wife would start knowing God and learn what God feels, what He thinks, what He considers right/wrong, fair/unfair and so in the holy state they were they would come closer to God eventually becoming like Him in character. But after their fall that procedure stopped and now people were following and becoming similar to somebody else, the satan. God offered us a way out of sin, but the whole story doesn't end here. We are given His spirit to produce a fruit, thus aquiring the characteristics of His character. This is the narrow road after His commandments.. And we know what God is like because Jesus told us and of course God's character shows in Christ who is God Himself.

But, if we will become something like little Gods, I don't really know, there are many objections to that.

And you are right again that we have to accept God's gift of salvation to be saved, it is not an automatic process for all people. You accept His offer and you are given it, you don't accept it and you are not be given it. And after we have been saved we have to walk all the way to the end to be given what we were promised, the salvation of our souls. GBU

Hi, I enjoyed reading your discussion and have some further items I'd like to discuss. I think in my original discussion I shared or should have indicated that God is not lonely. Man was not created because God was lonely, I believe God has so much love to share is the reason or cause that He created mankind.

Man, being created in a physical and spiritual form, having ears, eyes, etc. however I don't believe God has these attributes because God was never created he always existed, no one or no thing ever created God. God didn't create himself, he always existed, that's why he said "I am, that I am" in the scripture. Notice in the scripture when God's name was asked, he didn't even provide His name, because it was, I believe too holy for man to hear let alone utter. You'd think if there was a God with this much power mankind would be scrambling to live right, yet that's not the reality for some, and yet to be a reality for "whosoever will." Again this displays God's goodness, God even gives man a free will choice to choose to accept Him.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV

"What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose." Psalms 25:12 KJV

(will share more discussion later)

Hi Ronald

Goliath's height according to the Septuagint was 4 cubits and a span. that makes him about 6 foot 9 (2.06m) which is a normal height for basketball players nowadays. As Jaz said in the past people were a lot smaller than today. A few years ago as I was visiting an archaeological museum, for the first time I noticed that the helmets of ancient warriors were very small thus indicating that people at that time were a lot smaller than today. A guy 6 foot 9 would seem to them like a high tree without any doubt. One time I stood infront of a guy who was 7 foot tall. I felt really really tiny.

Anyway, you wrote, "Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then"

Do you mean that the angels of God can attack a human. Why? What for? They are supposed to protect us, not harm us. Would you like to write a bit more about those confrontations you mentioned? Unless you wouldn't like to remember them again. GBU

Ge.17:15-16 "Sarah"

Sara was the spouse of Abraham. God willed a new name to accord her as the Mother of many nations where faith establishes her place in the everlasting covenant.

First we shall take up the new name given to Sarah which merits our attention. She typifies the Sister-spouse conundrum as Eve was taken out Adam and also typifies the Bride the church, so she is created after the likeness of Jesus Christ. So she has her own place as Abraham in the everlasting covenant. Notice the emphasis on 'indeed' in the verse quoted below. "Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."(v.19). She as sister was counted as the mother of many nations.She is also a hero of faith and listed accordingly in the list of heroes of faith.(He.11;11-12). She as spouse also has a role, "and she shall be a mother of nations" (v.16) "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord:."(1 Pe.3:6)

She stands in comparison with Hagar her handmaid. " For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman./But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise." (Gal.4:21-22) Of the seed of Abraham Sarah is the mother of those born after the Spirit. Faith is what required of them. Whereas for those born after the flesh, the rite of circumcision is a sign. So we shall come to the covenant with Abraham with regards to 'thy seed' " which is compared to, "And as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable." When the beast arises out of the sea we know that it is associated with the end times. "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,"(Re.13:1)

With regards to Ishamael God had already determined his role so the Angel of the Lord counsels her," Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.: ( Ge. 15:9; 21:12-13)

Next:

God is SUPERLATIVE

He is the highest of High, the Best of all, the Supreme Being over all others. Highest in magnitude, Greatest of all that exists.

There is no one Holy like the Lord. He is above and beyond all creation in glory, majesty, beauty, perfect in every way. He stands alone as the only God that exists and is to be worshipped whole-heartedly because He is worthy to receive all of our adoration and praise. All of His creation bows to Him as their Maker, Sustainer, Provider, and Life Source.

We should have a high view of God, esteeming Him more than anything that our heart could love. We should be awed by His glorious Presence as was the case of Isaiah when he saw the Lord in His heavenly temple (IS. 6) exalted and praised by all of the heavenly beings. Someday we will see His face and we will be stunned, amazed, enthralled, and overflowing with joy by His countenance displayed for us to behold.

Even though God is superlative and highly exalted, we know that He humbled Himself to become human like us through the divine Son. Jesus is Emmanuel (God with us) and while on earth He was approachable, humble, and ordinary to mankind. But within the human body of Jesus divinity shared in humanity. We cannot even comprehend the greatest humility of all beings Jesus took on when He left His Father to incarnate in human flesh to save us.

When we see Jesus in eternity He will be the most glorious being we will ever behold. We will see His divinity and His glorified humanity completely unveiled and be amazed by Him.

I am so looking forward to this! Whereas in His earthly life He was not highly esteemed, nor seen as beautiful, but in His glory, He will be incomparable and unparalleled in glory and majesty. We will see Him as He truly iis eternally and superlatively.

Ge.17:7

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

The same covenant God renewed with Noah we have in the key text. "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" (9:15)

Before we go into the topic proper we have a verse to keep in mind. "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."(v.5

With Abraham it is stated in three parts. 1) The covenant is between God and Man 2): "And thee" as the man in the Man component. 3) And thy seed "after thee" The phrase is in keeping with 'after his likeness". So Jesus Christ in the generation of Jesus Christ is the son of Abraham. (Matt.1:1) This is further validated by change in the name of Abram to Abraham so the name of Jesus Christ as the Son over his house has pre-eminence.

Christ Jesus "And was made in the likeness of men:/And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross./Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:/That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;/And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."(Ph.2:2:7-11)

The covenant is an everlasting covenant which serves as the matrix of divine Will concerning the body. The firstborn is mine"

"Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem." (Nu.18:15)

We have this applied to the Law of Moses. Similarly for the Gentiles. Firstborn of every creature. ( Col 1:14-17)

Ge.15:18 "In the same day" (2 of 2)

Instead of fire the Spirit uses a burning lamp between 'those pieces' Abraham offered . The Spirit refers to the seed of Abraham on one part "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."(He.11:12) So the division of the seed are up and down where the blessing assured by the everlasting covenant brings the heirs to fruition. The principle 'You shall know them by fruits' works; Similarly the great commission of the risen Christ works across. By principle of Association the Gospel spreads uttermosts parts.

God refers the nation of Israel specifically in v.13: "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;" and in v.17 God refers to the ten nations between two rivers. The Gentiles as well as the nation of Israel are called under the covenant to blessed in the Son.

A covenant is not one way pact. Israel failed on their part.

Ge.15:18 "In the same day" (1 of 2)

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

The day refers to the day decreed for his Son. Jesus Christ having fulfilled his ministry on the earth tells his disciples, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."(Matt.28:18-20; Ac.1:8). So unto this seed have I given this land does not mean it is given to the nation of Israel. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Col.1:19-20) This the sacrifice demanded of Abraham needs to be studied in detail. Abraham's frustration of not having a heir of his own God could appreciate. So he specifies how he was to offer his sacrifice. In v.9 "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon." The command number Three is a tag for his Son. When God would descend upon him in token of a pledge he does one curious thing. "Behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.(v.17). The smoking furnace we associate with God when he descended upon Mount Sinai,-("And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace,-Ex.19:18) ) as well as when the bottomless pit was opened. "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace."(Re.9:2)

Thank you for that Ronald , I have been mistaken then . I always thought that a cubit was a measurement from wrist to elbow of the average male of the time , and a span from the tip of the middle finger to the tip of the thumb of an extended male hand , therefore coming to about six feet ( six cubits ) six inches ( one span ) . Not sure where I got this information to be honest but I stand corrected .

I'm sure that God made Goliath as tall as he was on purpose , knowing that in the future a stripling of a boy would fell this giant and impress all of his peers , I have no doubt that giants existed but I'm sure they were just very tall humans , some sort of genetic mutation perhaps , and I do know that people were on average very much shorter than they are now .

If we think of Saul , part of the reason the Israelites wanted him as their king was because they were impressed by his height , we aren't told how tall he was just that he was head and shoulders above every other man in Israel . Goliath must have been even taller than Saul . I don't believe that giants were mythical , just tall people . Tall people are very common these days but I'm guessing not so much several thousand years ago and the opportunity to meet one would have been very limited in those days so I'm guessing they caused quite a stir by their appearance . At the end of the day , God created all flesh , as it is and as He wants it to be . There are no mythical creatures , just God's handiwork .

Ge.13:14-15 "To thy seed"

"Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:/For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

The Spirit ties God's promise mentioned earlier in 12:3 in direct frame of reference to the covenant, The covenant is between God and Man. The usage of "And to thy seed forever" signifies Abraham serves as a double for Jesus Christ. As Adam and Noah were earlier. After the great flood the same covenant was repeated where "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh;" included every living creature. There was no alteration but brought the role of His creation into focus that was all. The phrase 'I will remember' was to point out that it was the same covenant God was referring to. (9:15). In the case of the expression " forever" places emphasis on Jesus Christ. The earth abides forever since the Son represents the visible world made to appear. Later God states "The land is mine" which being the case the phrase cannot have any other meaning.

As in the case of the covenant God separated the light from darkness. Here the Spirit sets the covenant in terms of the land. "Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other." (The significance of going east has not changed. While he moved to Sodom we have Abraham left to trust God solely for the rest of his life.

What does his seed signify? "All families" consist more than Israel. "And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." The same blessings in Ge.1:28 on man who is created 'after our image and after our likeness'. This blessing is not on nation but man who is in the Man component. Faith is the key. On the basis there are two nations children of darkness, "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth" (13:16) and as stars, "So shall thy seed be."(15:5)

Ge.12:1 "Into the light"

"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"

God wanted Abraham to walk him as his forefathers Noah and Enoch did. So he had to walk with Him in fully trusting him.

At a time human migrations were looking for greener pastures and new lands to conquer God wanted him to get out of his comfort zone and 'unto a land that I will shew thee." The Spirit has showed us what he had in mind. "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be./And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."(15:5-6). In the epistle to the Hebrews we know that his walk with God was into the light while the rest of the world were moving farther into darkness. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."(He.11:8-10)

The people moving towards the east had one speech and it was their will worship. Building the tower in the plains of Shinar was a fiasco. No they were not put off but wanted to impose their own will and build a kingdom. Did it augur well? They were moving into darkness and at the time of Jesus we are told that, it had settled over them. "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. "(Matt.4:15-16)

Meanwhile Abraham had to much to learn with regards to the life in the Spirit. His utter frustration in not having a seed of his own as against what God had promised. How well he respected the article of faith is what the Spirit teaches us with the life of Abraham.

SOVEREIGNTY

Pt. 3

In some ways, Scripture seems to teach that God's election was based on His foreknowledge of all things and in other ways, Scripture also teaches that God did not choose any of us because of anything that we do or say. because His choice is freely chosen within His uninfluenced sovereign will. I cannot say that I truly know which is correct or if both are somehow correct.

But I know that Scripture does say that salvation is completely a work of God to us, not at all of ourselves in any way, lest we should have anything to boast of in this matter. God gets all the glory and credit for our salvation. We are the recipients for His mercy and grace not the ones who initiate its release to us.

I think that the hardest part of God's Sovereignty for many believers and unbelievers is, if God desires all humans to be saved, why He does not save everyone. He certainly has the power and authority to freely choose to do so. But He does not, and we feel the anguish of realizing that billions of humans will not be saved, more will enter eternity unsaved that save, for narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and wide is the way to eternal destruction. Why would God have this be so? We just do not know. Yet as believers we must trust that His sovereign ways are just and true and righteous and without any form of malice, desire to see anyone to be condemned to eternal punishment, or favorites. How do we square with that knowledge of God as the Eternal Sovereign? I really do not have an answer because the counsels of God are beyond us finding out.

So, let us let God be God and ourselves be unworthy of all His goodness given to us in Christ Jesus.

SOVEREIGNTY

Cont.

So, some will say "where does free will come in concerning the angels, humanity, and any other conscious moral powers, rulers, authorities in the heavenlies?"

God will that all moral beings He created would be free to choose to obey Him or not. When the angels sinned and the other angels did not, He then sealed the holy angels to be forever sinless and judged the sinful angels to never be restored to their original holiness.

For human beings, He consigned all human beings over to sin and corruption, leaving none that are truly righteous as He is righteous. Romans 11:32 i order that He may be merciful to them in their need for redemption.

Adam and Eve were the only humans who truly had a will that was free to obey God or disobey. Since their sin, they and all humans are now in bondage to sin and the corruption of sin and the wages of sin, which is death.

We are not free to righteously choose to seek God, obey Him, love Him, or worship Him in our fallen, unredeemed state. We are only free to choose sin, and that we do. But thank God, that in His sovereignty He chose to regenerate those He elected so that they can have a new nature that is once again free to choose to obey Him yet still having a nature that wills to disobey. See Romans 7.

The sovereignty of God is absolute. We cannot sway His eternal will inn any way. We are all at His mercy and in need of His grace. Thank God He is Yahweh, who is gracious to whomever He is gracious to and gives mercy to whomever He is merciful to. Exodus 33:18-19. This is a major aspect of what His name means! He shows mercy and grace to those He sovereignly chooses.

We cannot understand the workings of this mercy and grace within the Godhead and His will. We are altogether NOT like Him and His ways are far beyond our ability to search out. But He is love and He expresses that love to humans in that while we were yet dead in sin, He made us alive to Him and saved us through the Son. ( Eph. 2:1-8)

Hello, I would like to return to posting on Who God is.

For "S" I want to say that God is SOVEREIGN

God did from eternity freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass according to His unfettered freedom of will, purpose, design, and outcome in all things without any restraint nor willed desire or choice outside of Himself. He is the ultimate authority, ruler, creator, sustainer, and governor of all of creation, things visible and invisible. Nothing in all creation happens unless He allows it to happen.

This is a hard truth because we must then believe that God allowed evil to enter the creation, first with the angels that sinned and then with the human people He made who sinned. He did not cause it to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He allowed it to come about because through it He will be most glorified in showing mercy and grace to save those who are fallen in humanity who He elected to be saved through the Son. He also ordained that He would allow some angels to sin and fall from being sinless to being profoundly evil. And He chose to not redeem these angels ever. One the other hand, He ordained to preserve forever the remaining angels from ever sinning, making them holy forever from the time He created them into all eternity without ever disobeying Him or sinning in their entire being.

On another doctrine of Scripture, God freely and irrevocably foreknew and predestined every person He willed to be saved through the Son. This election God made without any influence outside of Himself. Nothing man could do or say to Him factors into this election because He depends on no one in His decisions. And besides, He determined this election before any thing had been created, so He could not have been influenced by anything outside of Himself. He is completely free and unlimited.

By being sovereign, He reigns over creation in all things. He cannot be thwarted by any evil nor any opposition to His rule and will. Nothing happens to surprise Him.

Thanks David0921 for those additional comments.

Concerning 'election' & salvation, there is obviously a clear connection, but if Israel was God's Elect, then all Israel should have been saved (whether the election of God for selecting Israel as His people: Romans 9:11,12; or, said of Israel herself: Isaiah 45:4; or, even of the Church: Colossians 3:12). We know that when the Church is spoken of as God's Elect, then those comprising His Church must all be saved through His Son's Blood & Faith. But of Israel, they are God's Elect by position, yet still requiring Faith & Obedience to God's Word to be heirs of salvation through their coming Redeemer. If they disobey God, their election is of no use at all ( Romans 9:6.7), because even though "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (election), yet of the elect, they must also "attain righteousness, which is of faith" ( Romans 9:30-33).

And so we conclude here, since your example of Numbers 15:32-26 being "a statement by God denouncing a gospel that includes any work whatsoever on our part", is too far removed from my understanding of this passage, indeed the whole Word itself. You see a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that comes to us as a warning to not introduce works into the Gospel. I see simply a man who violated the Commandment and had to face God's Judgement as a result - nothing to do with our works, rather, of his and our Disobedience to God. Please, I know you are digging into the Scriptures to find the gold therein, which is commendable, but we all need to make sure that what we find & interpret as a precious find, is not just iron pyrite. Thank you for your time David - consider my input closed here. GBU.

Hi Jaz,

Just to give a little on the giants, Goliath was 6 cubits and a span tall that would put him close to 10 feet tall. There is Og king of Bashan his bed was nine cubits in length and four cubits wide, it would be about 14 feet long and about 6.5 feet wide. There are descriptions of the weapons, and they are by far larger than any human could handle. The descriptions of some whose height were like the height of the cedars and was strong as the oaks; Amos 2:9.

It is an interesting study, but it is just history that is hard to grasp because we take it as mythology, but they were real and here on earth.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Giannis,

I do not want to drag this out, I did not mean to insinuate that angels have sex in heaven, Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 have nothing to do with the biological sex of angels. All I said is this verse says when we are resurrected, we will be as the angels, immortal. There will be a day when the last baby is born on this earth.

Devils/demons and angels are two different beings, the Bible does not really tell us how devils/demons came to be, they do not have bodies and have to possess one as we see in Matthew 12:43-45 and other places, Angels have bodies and can attack us in our surroundings outside of our bodies, they can hurt us on the outside but they cannot possess our body, I can testify to that I have had personal confrontations with both, that is something I pray I do not have to go through again but if so, my Lord will be there with me as He was then.

Just me, if the ones locked in chains of darkness refused to obey a command from God Satan would have already been locked up but he is still disobeying and creating havoc. Were there actual Giants, to my studies they are not of the human race their size is outside of any human, it is up to one's own belief, this is just a discussion that has no relevance to salvation.

Thank you, brother God bless,

RLW

I've noticed some discussion on the following subjects so , if I may I would like to add my thoughts .

With regard to giants , I'm sure these were just very tall people . Goliath is referred to as one and he was about 6feet 6inches I believe . That might not seem very tall to us , however if we look at very old buildings , some of which in Europe are literally hundreds of years old , we can see how small the doors were . People were very surely , on average much shorter than we are now even just a couple of hundred years ago . We now , for the most part have a much better understanding of nutrition and most of us have much better access to nutritious food , which helps us to grow bigger and stronger . When the Greeks took over half the world , they were apparently a terrifying sight as they had been brought up on milk and meat and olive oil . So they were very much taller than many ancient peoples . Height can also be hireditary and as people tended to marry amongst their own , the height would be perpetuated potentially , through many generations .

As for angels eating and appearing to be humans , why not ? If God can make a donkey speak He can allow an angel to eat and appear in human form , no problem .

Lastly to the gender of angels . I believe angels to be created by God to fulfill His purposes and He can make them male or female as He wishes , Zechariah chapter 5 verse 9 for instance .

I think that maybe , when God gives visions or visitations to us humans , He is aware just how sensitive and potentially scared any of us might be by a celestial being and so takes into account our weak human nature and only allows us to see what our minds and understanding can cope with . When I think of the things that Ezekiel saw I know i should be terrified if I had seen those things . God helped Ezekiel to see and remember and record those things .

These are just my thoughts on those topics .

May I ask you a personal question Michael ? You don't have to answer me, maybe just answer this question in your own heart and mind , how well do you really know God and Jesus ?

As far as my understanding goes , the ONLY way to get to know them is through the Word , the Living Word of God , that book we call the Bible . For me , it has to be read , every day . God Himself has provided the means by which we may get to know Him and He doesn't expect us to just believe in Him without knowing Him . He expects us to make the effort to really get to know Him and to do so by reading His Word .

The Bible is a wellspring of life to us who call ourselves Christians . We all struggle with our sinful nature sometimes but , when I am tempted to do or say something that I know God would not want me to , I KNOW that God can see and hear me . I KNOW that I am an open book to Him , there is no doubt in my mind that God is real , alive , eternal and ever present everywhere . I only know these things because I have learned about Him by reading the Bible every day for thirty years , praying to Him every day for thirty years and by recognising Him , in His creation , in my life and in the lives of others .

The Bible is the foundation of my faith . Is it the foundation of yours ? Make it so and your feet shall be on solid ground for ever . Go back to basics , start at the beginning and don't give up , be persistent and determined and God will reveal Himself to you and you shall be convinced and therefore stronger in your faith and therefore less troubled in this life . We shall always have some troubles but , if we know that God is with us , we can get through any and everything and do so with a joyful heart .

Hello Ronald.

Well, my belief on all the ponts yor wrote about are:

About giants. We see that there were giants before and after the flood. Assuming they are of the same race then those after the flood must originate from Noah himself. Then that means that that corruption entered Noah and his family and from there to the whole mankind? Or the giants described in the latter books are some other human races, something which to me sounds more possible?

About those angels who are imprisoned in the bottomless pit, what I have heard is that they are devils who sometime denied to obey a command from God so they were imprisoned there. Example, when Jesus ordered a demon to exit a human and he didn't want to do so, then God punishes them by sending them to the prison, that bottomless pit. So it is a sentence for not being willing to obey God. The estate and habitation Jude is talking about, I am considering them as the holy state and Heaven where all those demons were living before rebeling against God. This seems to agree with what Jude was talking about in the previous verse, Jude 1:5-6, "5.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6.And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude is trying to say that disobedience to God brings punishment and uses the example of those devils.

About angels having a biological sex. If we assume that there are male angels then we must assume that there are female angels too. But what for since they will never reproduce? So they have sex in Heaven, too? Sorry Ii know it sounds weard but I wanted to make a point.

About angels having bodies and eating food, well this is something we can not explain really and we have to simply believe it because the Bible says so.

GBU

Hi David

Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?

Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?

Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?

Ge.11:27-28 "Mass Migrations" ( 2 of 2)

We see in the lives of Moses and Abraham that the seed in itself was there. Appreciative of God's calling, their obedience to God's word began showing results. Can two persons walk together unless agreed upon?(Am.3:3)

After the great flood nations were moving away from their calling. Going east signalled their ungodliness. Against this we have Abraham bucking the general trend of materialism. In the case of Moses, God called him out."And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. "(Ex.3:4) In obedience faith has a chance to grow and it was thus with the saints of old. Unknown to the Patriarch his faith life was equipping him far greater things. It is faith that opens a believer's eye to know the blessings under the covenant. Without faith what we read here in this forum and elsewhere merely prattle on sacred matters as though they can solve it by their reasoning? "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." He.5:12 Symptomatic is the relative merits of KJV and other versions. With no appreciation for the Spirit they have itching ears , and it is the case of the bind leading the blind.

If a believer has no resect for his indwelling Spirit no amount of teaching the word is going to help.

Ge.11:27-28 "Mass Migration" (1 of 2)

"Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot./ And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees." God's covenant with Man is for perpetual generations. These are included in the generation of Jesus to whom God has decreed a day. Of the three sons of Noah, "and of them was the whole earth overspread."(9:19). From Eden the Spirit gives us a direction that explains the uttermost parts of the earth. East of Eden was merely the beginning and after the flood people began moving eastwards. "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech./And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east." (11:1-2) What was the one speech? "I will" as Lucifer said. Noah's sons were three and the number Three is a tag for the Son. Farther from Eden people represented seeking new adventure in outer darkness. The mighty hunter Nimrod must have been a celebrity of his times. We do not read the people as was in the generation of Enos, "and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." (4:26). Division of the earth,"after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations," was more important to them. Then came famines and human migration were forced on them. Yet turning to God for help was not felt as we see in our own times. If this is not 'outer darkness what will you call our times? Jeremiah qualified those who made flesh their arm."Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord."(Je.17:5) As was in the time of Nimrod we live in such barbarous times.

What I believe and understand is that mankind is a spiritual being created by God, in God's image. God not being lonely desired to create mankind for fellowship and to become like God (through Jesus Christ). That is why it is referred to in the bible as a "high calling".

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV

According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV

Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)

Ge.9:12 "Perpetual generations"

"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations." The covenant referred here is the everlasting covenant and it covers perpetual generations. From these man who is blessed is to be admitted in the Fellowship of God with Man in which he represented Jesus Christ. This Man is Jesus Christ the Word become flesh. We have been predestinated in him before the foundation of the world. (Ep.1:3-4) 1.Between me and you. Noah serves as the double for his Son. 2 Every living creature that is with you. 3 The token. We shall try to understand the third element,

The Word is sound so when God commands "Let there be light" there are consequences.(Ge.1:14, 17-18) The sign of two great lights are the Zion-New Jerusalem descending fro heaven in Re.21:3. The bow similarly is another token. Advent of Jesus Christ is foreshadowed by these signs. Let us recap: God repeats the covenant in terms of 'after our image' and "after our likeness'. In Ge.1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" and both Adam and Noah are alike. Noah is now set down as man in place of Adam. Noah serves as the steward for His creation. Because of sin having entered into the world, man is allowed to eat meat besides herbs. But his responsibility is still the same. "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." (9:16-17) The token covers "all flesh." So all the violence and bloodshed shall be judged at the end of the day decreed for the Son. "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Day and night shall not cease' is stated in the covenant. So there is only one covenant where by Jesus Christ all things consist.