Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 313

Indeed brother S. Spencer. Blessings.

I would then ask, Mr. Spencer:

If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?

Amen Brother Chris!

"God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone"

We are to join him (God) in his rest.

Hebrews 4:2-11.

God bless.

Well stated here Brother Chris.

Quoting you;

( Christ's Sacrifice was the necessary payment as required by the Father so that every person, who could never make payment for their sin or cleanse their guilty conscience, has now been given a clear path to God for forgiveness, having satisfied God's Wrath against us & Jesus being our Substitute by paying our penalty)

God will judge the dead by their works.

Revelation 20:12.

They are judged by a righteous God and they are Judged in that manner because they WERE offered a sacrifice that they rejected and a justified judgement felt on them.

God bless you.

Hey David0921,

I will just say what Scripture tells us we must do. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy, or our sins will remain, not forgiven, blotted out, or paid for unless we believe, and come to repentance as we are commanded to do. That only comes from hearing the Gospel of Jesus, the word of God. As we see in Acts 2.

That's all I can say, God bless,

RLW

I do appreciate your comments David0921 and I guess this would now take us back to our old discussion on biblical hermeneutics. Clearly, yours & mine are very different and even at this fundamental, yet essential matter of how we should read, understand & dissect the Bible so that it is meaningful & confirmed in our hearts, will be the one that can never bring us to agreement.

In my view, and taking your advice on board, I believe that I do allow "the Bible to be its own interpreter" as I compare Scripture with Scripture, the Covenants, the Work of the Cross, etc. But it seems that we are, maybe not even understanding, what some of the verses are actually stating, which then leads us on to our own understanding & belief. Even the Romans 9:13-16 example you gave, to prove your point, I believe by my little exegesis to you, doesn't actually prove anything. Or the Joel 2:12-14 passage: maybe some exegesis from you on these passages might reveal how you are understanding it in light of our discussion, simply because I can't see the connection.

And not only with this important subject of Salvation (i.e. whether we are regenerated before being saved or after), we will very likely disagree on other matters (e.g. are the prophecies concerning Israel's future - into the Great Tribulation, of wars, of Christ's intervention, of their part in His Millennial rule, etc., still to be taken literally or simply transposed to the Church? If they are to be transposed, then what do we do with the other prophecies? Should we reinterpret them as well to suit our preferences? Then, how literally are we supposed to read the Bible? All these strange questions surface, hence my biblical understanding is to accept what is given, yet understanding what the book/chapter/verses are actually referring to and their connection to other verses relevant to it). I only share this last paragraph as a further example - but not for discussion on this particular thread. Every blessing.

Hey Giannis,

We know Seth is the line that goes all the way to the Messiah Jesus therefore when Seth had Enosh, this line was the only one walking and calling on the name of God. We see Enoch and Noah walked with God but by the time of Noah all had corrupted themselves, whether they had created false gods, we are not told but their imaginations were evil.

I may have a different understanding of the sons of God, we see in Luke 3:38 that Adam was called the son of God because he was a direct creation of God, he had no human father. Jesus is the Son of God and through Jesus, we can become sons and daughters of God, but I have not found where men are called sons of God.

If we take the sons of Seth as sons of God, would we not have to take the daughters of men the daughters of Cain or all the other men who did not call on the name of God? They all are from Adam and Eve would not all the daughters be fair? The flood was 1656 or 2256 years from Adam, and it says when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them. So, this was long before the flood.

We see in the Bible the sons of God are referring to angels as we see in Job 1:6-12 Job 2:1 and Job 38:7. I have not found where men were called sons of God until after the Messiah Jesus and those who believe in Him can become sons of God.

We know there are fallen angels like Satan and others on this earth but there are other angels God has locked in chains of darkness I suppose is the bottomless pit until judgment, 2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6. My understanding is these are the sons of God who corrupted and polluted God's creation that He destroyed all but eight. We see this happened again after the flood as told in Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also, after that, as we see in Scripture some tall as cedars, Amos 2:9.

God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald,

I'm not going to reproduce what I've said already or provide more verses. But please consider this.

God's Law declares that the wages of sin is eternal DEATH. And God obligates Himself to uphold His Law. God cannot ignore His Law and just decide not to punish us for our sin.

So in order to have a people for Himself for eternity and to demonstrate to mankind and to principalities and powers in heavenly places the justice, the mercy, the patience, the long suffering, the love of God; God in Christ chose to pay the full penalty demanded by His Law for those dirty rotten sinners that He chose to save. Sinners that apart from God's working in their life and the MIRACLE of the New Birth in their life would continue in their rebellion against Him, because we want what we want and we love our sin.

God's elective program is God's business. Not our business. And God makes it very clear that His Elect have no more inclination to humble themselves and turn to Him with a broken and contrite heart than any unsaved sinner who continues in their rebellion.

And God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

The drug addict seeking His pleasure in every immoral way possible could be one of God's elect just as readily as the most upstanding citizen of this world. And God must perform the same MIRACLE of salvation in either if they are to be saved.

We should be humbling ourselves before the Word of God, not trying to redesign His Salvation program, and praising Him for His mercy that He would save any one of us at so great a cost to Himself.

I've said this very inadequately and very incompletely.

Ronald.

Yes, He only drove them out to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and live for ever in a sinful condition. But He didn't remove His presence from them. In Genesis 4:26 says, "... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." or "then begun men to be called with the name of the Lord" What does that mean? In Genesis 6:2 it says, "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.". The scriptures call the descenants of Seth as "sons of God" while calling all the other as "children of men"

Thank you as well. GBU

Hi GiGi

May I intervene and say a few things?

Let us see some cases in the Book of Acts concerning people who believed in Jesus. Say Paul. Was he regenerated when he saw Jesus on his way to Damascus? On the contrary he was on a mission to jail the christians there. So what happened to him and believed in Jesus? Answer. Jesus' appearance to him. Second case, Cornelius and his friends. Were they regenerated when Peter came and preached to them? What made them believe? Because of the appearance of the angel Cornelius saw when fasting. Next case That Roman in Cyprus. Was he regenerated? Until a time he couldn't make up his mind who was right, Paul or that sorcerer. What opened his (spiritual) eyes and believed? The loss of sight of that sorcerer after Paul's command. So we see that many times God acts in specific ways to assist people to believe in Him. Recalling how God helped me to believe in Jesus, well, I had a client who was a new born christian. Sometime he started talking to me about Jesus and salvation. I had my beliefs at that time like all people in the world. Maybe God exists maybe no, maybe there is afterlife, maybe not. And I was resisting to him a lot. But what made me keep discussing with him about Jesus was a very joyful feeling I was always having as we were talking about these things. I was feeling joy all the time. And I kept going back and talk until God found an opening in my hert and did all the good work. If not, probably I would be bored after the second time and ended such conversations. So you see joy was the specific action of God to me.

So instead of saying "regeneration" maybe we can say "a specific action of God to those He knows that will believe" to help them believe? Think about it.

Finally in Jeremiah 23:29 says, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" God's word is like a hammer that breaks a rock. What is a rock? it is a stonny heart, an unregenerated heart, isn't it?

Thank you, Giannis,

Your knowledge of the Greek language is appreciated, I agree that a gate would probably have been mentioned when He drove them out. He drove them out, but they were still in His presence as we see when Cain was driven out from God's face and the presence of God, Genesis 4:14-16. God has given us what we need in only 6 chapters covering 1656 years from Adam to the flood or in the Septuagint 2256 years.

Thanks again

God bless,

RLW

Hey David0921

I have been following this discussion I would just ask this, I believe your understanding is everyone is predetermined to be saved or not. What kind of justice is that and why would there even be a judgment? 2 Cor. 5:10 God knows the end from the beginning, and we have been given the way to eternal life with Him and His Son Jesus Christ.

When all is over we read in Rev. 20:11-15, is the final judgment, if our final destination is predetermined and we do not have a choice to accept and believe or reject God's word and the gospel of Christ that God sent His Son to die for our sins and was resurrected from the dead and is setting on the right hand of God that gives us our only hope of salvation and eternal life, why and what for are we going to be judged if we had no obligation to believe and be obedient.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. We must answer the call and believe to be saved, believing is on us, God's mercy and grace are what saves us. God wants all to be saved but not all will accept His gift that we do not deserve or cannot earn by anything we can do but believe.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald

Well, it says that the garden or paradise was located in Eden (or Edem) which was to the east (of Israel, I suppose). East of Eden was an old movie and usually people have that in mind.

The word paradise does not have the meaning of a walled area in grk. But looking it up on the net I found out that the original word comes from ancient Persian and means "an enclosure". Later on it was used to describe the "walled gardens" of the persian kings. Later on it entered other languages like grk, Hebrew and Aramaic with the meaning of "walled royal park or gardens" and finally it ended up meaning a beautiful place in modern times.

In the OT the Septuagint always uses the word paradise where the Hebrew text says garden. In the NT we see it in 3 cases. It was used by Jesus when He was talking to the thief that was crucified next to him. So here obviously it means a beautiful place in Heaven, Luke 23:43. Also by Paul when he said that the Lord brought him to Paradise, 2 Corinthians 12:4. And by John in Rev 2:7..Paul and John probably used paradise instead of garden as they had in mind the Septuagint text which was the only OT text in use at that time by the christian gentiles and the grk speaking Hebrews.

Was the original garden in Eden an enclosure?. In Genesis 3:23 God sends the Cherubims to guard the garden and prevent Adam and Eve entering. It says, "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.". If it was walled it would mention a gate, a door, something, wouldn't it? But who really knows? GBU

"Numbers"

God has set angels as the Word from heaven commands. St John says that he heard the number. "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates./And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men./ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." (Re.9:14-16) The multiples of 2 refers to heaven and the earth. By the same token Noah's age before the flood is given where both the Father and the Son are in perfect agreement. After our image and after our likeness. As with Enoch he also walked with God. In terms of the World of the Spirit 'he was not. Because God took him.

What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establishes the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled his ministry he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadows, of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under which the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25) As in the case of Enoch he also walked with God so death only refers to his flesh.

"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.

Ge.9:20-29 "Generation of Noah" (2 of 2)

The dry land where Noah tended his crops recall his life of the flesh which is his second phase. In order to distinguish these two halves we have the age given. "And Noah did according unto all that theLordcommanded him./And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth." What is six hundred? (2x3x100) Where the Command number Three establish the role of Noah. He is the redeemer of a nucleus of the family of God. ("Thereshall be anhandful of cornin the earthupon the topof themountains;"-Ps.72:16) . Having fulfilled he is on the earth redeemed from Judgment. The same foreshadow of the light of the Lamb lighting the earth under whick the saved nations shall walk. (Re.21:25)

"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"

Here the drunkenness of Noah runs parallel with the deep sleep of Adam. As soon as he comes out of it he is aware what his younger son had done. The Spirit is putting emphasis on the flesh in the latter half.

"And he died" "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years./ And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. The Spirit goes to its home and the dust returns to dust. In order to separate these we have before and after the flood.

Ge.9:20-29 "Generation of Noah" (1 of 2)

But Noah found grace in the eyes of theLord./These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." (6:8-9)

The Spirit describing the generation of Noah gives us two division similar to the before and after in the case of Job. God blessed the latter half of Job. "So theLordblessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning."( Job 42:12). God had found him perfect, and there is no question of having to change it least of all before Satan. "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"( Job 1:8). The Spirit used the two divisions to show the divine Will is perfect and holiness of God allowed Job to be tempted even as did not spare his own Son. The blessings of his latter end covered both 'after our own image and after our likeness." Thus blessings went two fold where he was as double for his Son and in the estimation of God the Father as well.

In the case of Noah it is other way around. Before the flood he is after the likeness of his Son, the Man component in the everlasting covenant. So when God tells him of the covenant, "And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations."(9:12). God is referring to the existing covenant of Ge. Ch.1. "This covenant between God and Man in his Son is for 'perpetual generations." Under the bow in heaven it is addressed to all flesh, "And I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." (9:16-17)

The dry land where Noah tended his crops recall his life of the flesh which is his second phase. In order to distinguish these two halves we have the age given. "And Noah did according unto all that theLordcommanded him./

Hey Giannis,

Interesting, wasn't it also thought to be a walled garden or paradise and not in Eden but east of Eden or Edem? In Genesis 2:8 the Hebrew word gan translated garden also means enclosure so it could have been walled. If they were in an enclosure makes you wonder how they could carry out Genesis 1:28 before they were cast out in Genesis 3:27-28.

God bless,

RLW

Ge.5:5 "All the days of Enoch"

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

"And he died." This comes after God had set what quality his life shall have. In sorrow he had sin at the door to contend with. All the days of his life was a marker set on him and on sons of Adam. "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"(Ge.3:17) The ground was cursed for his sake. So what he left behind were sons and daughters 'after his likeness. It is what the chapter instructs us of his sons except for a few.

God counselled Cain and it fell on deaf ears as we can infer from consequences of Abel's murder. "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."(4:7) Sin is like a wolf waiting outside and knows the advantage of being domesticated. Once gained entry it may end up as his best friend and makes man know the system, or the way the world works and go high up in the world till thing get unravelling as we have seen some shakers and movers of the nations have come down as villains. In an anything goes society even a convicted felon is candidates for the highest office in the realm. In serving God and mammon, ungodly has no choice but their own unresolved prejudices and bigotry get flung back at their faces, with nail-studded jackboots. This is precisely what their sins in circulation have brought home.. Adam sinned and in sorrow survived fratricidal murder about the hearth. Finally he died.

In the case of Enoch he took well heed of the divine counsel to Cain. "If thou does well, shall thou not be accepted? So he walked with God. The Spirit inserts the same formula, All the days of his life. It meant the blessings provided in the everlasting covenant put him in heavenly places. All his life. Whether he slept or died physically is immaterial. (5:22-24). This explains the different order of resurrection.

Hello to you Noah , I too have felt that way at times in my life . Usually it has been when I have been neglecting my relationship with God and Jesus , feeling a bit disconnected from them . When this happens it is always our fault . God never neglects us or wanders away from us , only we do that to Him . You need to reconnect , best way is to read your Bible every day without fail and to pray to Him every day , always giving thanks for all the good things in your life . Try to see Him every day , in His creation and in your own life and the lives of others , refresh yourself by reading about the promises He has made to those that wait patiently for Him and His Son . This world is hard and cold but , we have the comfort of knowing that we are never alone , Christ walks with us to keep our feet on the straight and narrow . This world will pass but the love of God and of Jesus will always surround us and we shall live with them in God's Kingdom on earth when Christ returns . The earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord and we can be there to see it all . Look forward to the great things to come and set your heart on them . You will be back on the right path soon I'm sure , may God bless you .

Ge.5:1 "After our image and after our likeness" (2 of 2)

"After the likeness" is settled by the word of God . Thus Adam is qualified as the son of God.( Luke 3:39) As a living soul it is correct. But after he sinned what he produced "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:" (In his likeness is different from 'after our likeness'.

After our image and after our likeness is illustrated by Adam after the creation of Eve. "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."(Ge.2:23). She is taken out of Christ. So church included both 'after our image and after our likeness'

In the genealogy we see Adam had other sons and daughters besides Seth. "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters."(5:3-4) The Spirit makes a distinction between what is holy and what is not. Sons and daughters of Adam are after the flesh while Seth sets himself in place as the double for Jesus Christ.

Ge.5:1 "After our image and after our likeness" (1 of 2)

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;"

The Spirit is giving us one narrative thread to show the sons of Adam and the other in the likeness of God. Because in the holy family of God the latter had the seed in itself and would show with their fruits that they were blessed under the covenant in the Man component. The first example to be called the righteous one is Abel. By offering,"the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof," he showed that he was planted by God. His works proved it. ( 1 John 3:12). Seth proved it by stepping into the breach made by Cain. (4:25-26) His generation proved by faith. "Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.". It answers the period 'in the beginning' the book opened with. Ge.1:1

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens," (2:4) The Spirit now begins with the period in the day that God created which also is tacked on to the generations of Adam where after our image and after our likeness are made distinct.

The second narrative thread gives us that of Jesus, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(Matt.1:1) Jesus as the son of David is "after our image" meaning according to the flesh as stated in this passage, "that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;"(Ac.2:29-30) There is another connection with regards to Abraham. Jesus tells the Jews that "Before Abraham was, I am." How did they receive it? They were the sons of Adam and did not have the truth in them. The truth signifies the seed that is in itself. "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."( John 8:58-59)

Ge.4:25-26 "Calling on the name of the Lord"

Blessed are counted, and they bear the name of the Lord. Holy is his name.( Luke 1:49) The Spirit gives us the connection of the name with works. They call on the name of the Lord and faith is the causative agent. We trace here the family of God under the everlasting covenant as distinct from those who belong to the outer darkness.

And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of theLord.

The seed in itself is the word of God in our hearts. It has to have a body as it pleases the Lord. This explains a duration of time. So the 'then' refers to 'in the beginning' in Ge.1:1 and John 1:1

Ge.4:16-17 "Outer darkness"

"And Cain went out from the presence of theLord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden."

The Spirit uses the phrase 'on the east' of Eden to define what signified 'out from the presence of God.' It is the first reference to the usage of outer darkness. Generation of Cain and his descendants belong there. God sets a mark on Cain as he does with the first fruits mentioned in Re.14:1-4 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." Signs and wonders mark the saints redeemed from the earth.

Ge.4 "Cain and Abel"

This chapter began with Adam, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from theLord." Carnal knowledge of sin begets only sin. It is thus Cain went bad. His name signified gift from the Lord. On the other hand the Spirit does not give a meaning to the name his sibling carried. But his works pleased the Lord. He had respect to the knowledge by the light shown into his heart. (2 Co.4:6) Knowledge when applied leads to understanding. Abels offering pleased God because of the slain Lamb. It signified the divine care that compensated for the loss of glory associated with his parents. He remembered the loss of God as well that his offering was some kind of compensation. Abel "brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And theLordhad respect unto Abel and to his offering." Every good and perfect gift is from above.

Cain was a gift from the Lord but it cannot be said of his offering, to which God had no respect. The ground was cursed for his father's sake. "Cain was a tiller of the ground./And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto theLord." Abel viewed offering from God's point of view as it were. Whereas Cain gave 'a tip' from the accursed ground with a 'take-it- or- leave-it' attitude. "Not as Cain,whowas of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."( 1 John 3:12) In short his works showed his parentage.

Chris,

Again thank you for your responses. I'm going to get somewhat personal here so please forgive me for that.

I see in your comments a reluctance to allow the Bible to be its own interpreter resulting in an understanding which circumvents what God is teaching in these and many other verses regarding the condition of mankind, the nature of God's justice and judgment, the nature of Christ's atonement, and God's sovereign mercy and grace demonstrated in his election program.

And as a result, creating a gospel where mankind is in charge and not God ALONE.

I hope you will take GiGi's advice and prayerfully continue to examine your understanding, allowing the Bible to be its OWN INTERPRETER. As I and we all need to do regarding any belief that we hold, without introducing the bias of our own wisdom and the way we might like things to be.

Hi Giannis,

Amen. The earth abides forever because it is the visible world framed by the word of God.(He.11:3. Ec.1:4) Fulfilment of the world unseen, the divine Will is signified by the earth.

The curse falls on the ground where the law of sin operates. The ground is a closed system so dust to dust works. In the new heaven and new earth is similarly given to the saints redeemed from the earth because they are under law of the Spirit and freed from curse and condemnation. For them Gal.3:13-14 works. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." In Re.21:24 we read that "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." God makes a distinction between these two laws. So the new heaven and new earth are a sign for them, thereby fulfilling the words of Isaiah, 'we are signs and wonders'. The city on a hill of the parable.

In order to keep this we have outer darkness introduced which under the day of regeneration is just qualified as earth instead of 'ground' and it is to which Re.21:24 refers. The nations moving eastwards after the great flood is mentioned when the river Euphrates is dried, "that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared."(Re.16:12)From the fall of man the people were on the move and those rejected Jesus and the Gentiles are all part of it. There is much more going on besides the Law of Moses and the nation of Israel who rejected the blessings God under the covenant (Ge.1:28). We were called in his Son and our selection is by grace and the fruits being our works abiding as his branches.

Thanks GiGi; and I hope you had a good time away, away from those noisy workers, at least.

I think what we are grappling with here, is the word, 'regeneration'. I understand you believe that 'regeneration' can happen at any time to the one who is 'elected to salvation' to enable him to come to salvation. Whereas, the word 'regenerate' to me means 're-birth', and not simply an awakening or displaying some propensity towards spiritual things. I'm sorry if I've not properly grasped your meaning, but that's what I gather.

The best verse I can think of for this matter is Titus 3:3-5:

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly".

Paul of course, speaks of our former spiritual condition, then on God's Love & Kindness shown to sinful man (via the Gospel), and finally, that man could never save himself or make himself right before God, but could ONLY BE SAVED because of God's Mercy toward him. And how was his salvation effected? By 'regeneration' and by 'renewal', through the Holy Ghost.

If this sinner was first regenerated, so he could repent, respond, or approach God for salvation, then why would he need to do these things, for he was already regenerated & renewed by the Holy Ghost? And this question I had just posed to David0921. So, regeneration to me equates to re-birth, for I can't perceive that a regenerative Work of God is any less than that. If anything, as stated in another post of mine, I see the 'convicting, drawing, compelling' Work of the Holy Spirit urging the unregenerated soul - but this I wouldn't consider as a regenerative work. Thanks for your input here.

Hello Chris, I've been following this conversation over the past week.

I happen to agree with David in that one who is dead in sin must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel. It seems that yoo may think that being born again always happen at the same time as one being saved (within a short time frame)

I guess I think that it is God who regenerates any and all who are elected to salvation, and that conversion is not always a matter of a short time frame. From God's perspective, He can regenerate anyone and bring them to repentance and faith in a short period of time or over a more lengthy time frame. Yet from the standpoint of the person elected, they may not truly know when they exactly they were regenerated, but may know when they first believed the gospel and realized that they are saved.

I do believe only a regenerated person can cry out to God to save them because an unregenerated man will never desire to turn to God and seek salvation from God. But the God who regenerates is the One who brings one to repentance, a desire to petition God for salvation, and faith to believe the gospel (at which time the person realizes that they HAVE been saved by Jesus).

I hope I am not being confusing here or not presenting my ideas clearly. Even so, I hope that my thoughts may cause some to think deeply on this matter rather than in a superficial way (not that I think you are that way).

He who began the good work in you is faithful to complete it. (I can't recall the verse that says this at the moment, but it is clear that all that we are commanded to do to be saved is accomplished by the grace and action of God in the total process of our salvation) Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. God does all that is needed for us to be saved. After we realize that we are born again and saved, we can look back and say that it is all of God, not by my effort, choice, or desire, but His election and sovereign power to make alive that which is dead to Him.

David, I will pray for the MacAllisters in this time of loss and also your family.

Page 2. David0921.

Ephesians 2:1,8-10. As earlier mentioned, these verses show that we were dead in sin, but now made spiritually alive. And this has happed by God's Grace & God's Faith that are given to the sinner under conviction so that he might be saved. Grace & Faith must be present before re-birth - not after; if after re-birth, then there is no point in such needed Grace & Faith after salvation, for salvation is already received.

You may "fail to see how my understanding fits with any of the verses you have quoted", so I've shared what my understanding of those verses is. "Universal Atonement", or better, 'The Gospel to be brought to all people' is taught in the Bible ( John 3:16, Matthew 28:18-20), that all need to hear of this Good News of Salvation & express faith in Jesus' finished Work to be accepted of God. Or else, the Holy Spirit should have alerted Paul, Peter, and others as to specific individuals that should hear, receive the Gospel & be saved, to the exclusion of all others. And I simply don't find them doing any such thing or even teaching it. True, the Lord knows who will come to Him in repentance & faith, but all must have the opportunity to hear & respond. And those who seriously attend to the Gospel & affected by it, will surely engage the Spirit's ministry to lead that lost sinful soul to the point of repentance & calling upon the Lord for salvation. Romans 10:12-17.