Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 317

Hi David, it sounds like you believe you're on some kind of autopilot then after becoming a Christian, so you don't believe you have freewill and maybe assume everything you do is perfect?

>Noticed that every single action is GOD's. action, not OUR action.

I think you're cherrypicking a verse like 1 John 3:9 and making a dogma over it while disregarding the context. If you look at the verses before it, it clearly says believers sin. It's just that believers' sins are forgiven, if you abide in Christ.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Even believers need to purify themselves. The book is talking to Christians, as the verse before indicates.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

God will take away (forgive) our sin if we abide in Jesus Christ. It doesn't say that those who don't believe or don't abide in Jesus are forgiven. It doesn't say Christians are physically forced to not sin, and have no freewill to sin. No where in the Bible does it say that. The metaphor is from God's perspective, just like Hebrews 8:12 doesn't mean God has a memory problem. And just like drinking the blood of Christ doesn't literally mean his blood and those who eat bread aren't literally eating his body. And it doesn't say that a person loses their freewill or ability to even conduct themselves and become marionettes.

A few verses later it offers this strong warning (still addressed to Christians)

v8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So in the same chapter it says the same Christian can sin, just not to Jesus (if abiding), because of grace.

Jaz,

(Part 2):

Now, as for the things in your post, yes, I do remember the unprofitable servant and have read Luke Chapter 17. That is a great section of scripture as I'm sure you would agree. You mention that "We cannot overcome our sinful nature any other way other than by the way God has prepared for us, obedience."

God commands us to be obedient to Him. But until the day we die, or the Lord comes for us first, we will always have a sinful nature because of the flesh. We cannot overcome that. I made mention that we need to be able to differentiate between the flesh and the Spirit of God that lives in us. Our flesh will never submit to the Lord or be obedient to Him.

I guess the whole point I am trying to make is that we in our own human effort can do nothing that is pleasing to the Lord. I hear people say that they are doing God's work for Him, or they are doing this or that for the Lord. I don't agree with any of that.

Again, it comes down to understanding the difference between the flesh and the Spirit. The flesh cannot do anything pleasing to God. But there are many out there that are trying very hard in their own human efforts to do the things that are pleasing to God.

I stopped trying several years ago once I realized that God wasn't going to bless anything I did in my own effort. The only thing we can do that is pleasing to Him is to submit to the persuasion of His Spirit working in our lives. But it's His work, not ours. I think we spend too much time trying to please Him by our human effort. But many still keep on trying!

Jaz,

Again, I do thank you for taking the time to read my 3-part message about striving or attaining "sinless perfection." You mention that you agree with everything I said except the very last part. I am assuming it is the part where I said, "we need to stop trying."

As I've read through what you are disagreeing with, I just would like to say that those were not my words. I am not sure what you meant by saying "we must not stop trying to do those things that we know are acceptable to God and to avoid doing those things that we know are not pleasing to Him," but those were not my words.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming you are disagreeing with my last statement where I said that "we cannot reach a state of sinless perfection, so we need to quit trying." I believe this statement fits perfectly well with everything I said in my 3-part post that you agreed with. What am I missing?

As for me saying that we need to stop trying, please allow me to explain. My entire post was about being completely sin free or reaching a state of sinless perfection. I mentioned that we will only be in this state when we receive our glorified bodies. Definitely no sooner than that, and especially not in this life while we are living in this fleshly body that is corrupt. You said that you agreed with that, so what I don't understand is why you would disagree with my statement that we need to stop trying?

I need to send a part 2...

Hi Oseas,

Thanks again for your replies.

Sorry, but no I don't understand and haven't payed any attention to your time line,

Just the formula you use.

I've originally seen a post from you maybe a few months back where you mentioned 2 Peter 3:8 as your basis for your "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years formula.

I started to comment then but I didn't.

I'm just asking "Why are you only using half the verse?

If you decide not to answer that that's fine.

But, can you atleast tell me what does the second half of the verse mean? It can't be excused. It's not there for nothing. It's scripture and on the same verse.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and ( A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.)

Does that mean God started his creation 7 days ago?

I know that sounds silly but it's reasonable according to the way you calculate.

Or, When using your interpretation of 2 Peter the way you do is it reasonable to say When God says "And the evening and the morning were the first day" in Genesis 1:5. That also is a thousand years with the evening lasting 500 years and the day lasting 500 years?

Oseas you and I know we are not going to come to an agreement so let's agree to disagree.

God bless you.

Dear Spencer

Your post on Psalms 90:4 deserved the best of my attention.

O no, Spencer, Moses was born around 2500 years after Adam, and in his PRAYER Moses was remembering the wonderful revelations GOD had given to him about His works of the evening and morning of each Day of a thousand years past not only until his current time, but also on the future Days, until our current time, acording the Plan of GOD described in Genesis 1, understand?

O yes, Spencer, you say GOD is from everlasting to everlasting as is written, it is true, however, if we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD is greater, understand? Well, the Word of GOD, is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is the everlasting GOD, GOD Himself, Self-Executing, so the things GOD made from six thousand of years ago, or ten thousand, or billions of years ago, for my GOD they are of today, understand? for my GOD and Father there is not time or inexists time, He is Omnipresent, understand?

Regarding Psalm 90:2 and the content of all the rest of your posted commentary, you are saying surreptitiously as if I were interpreting the Scriptures in accordance with your imaginations written in your post, which is not true. Could you tell me which point in the timeline posted by me does not match the Scriptures?

By the way, I would ask: Why does the Jewish calendar have a difference of exactly 240 years in relation to the Christian calendar?

Yes Adam, God commands us to "choose", to believe, to repent, to obey, to love, etc. The whole Bible is God's Law Book for mankind. But we have to read the verses you quote in the light of what God declares about the condition of mankind. And that is that all of mankind (Adam and Eve excepted before they sinned) WILL NOT and CANNOT "choose" to obey, to repent, to love, i.e. to keep the Law of God in a way that is pleasing to God. Read Romans 3:10-18 and other verses teaching this. And that we are Spiritually "Dead in Trespasses and sins". And that God must raise us from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life. Eph 2:1.

Furthermore we know from the Bible that the penalty for even the slightest transgression of the Law of God is eternal Death. And in order for anyone to be saved, Christ, must have paid the full penalty required by the Law. And if that penalty has been fully paid, we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God and the Law cannot condem us. These are the Elect of God. We have no idea who these are. Only God knows. God's election program is God's business, not our business. But we know that God has obligated Himself to save everyone for whose sins He paid the full penalty.

But salvation does not end there. When God applies His salvation to one of His elect, He gives them a New Resurrected Soul, i.e. a New Heart in which, in itself, cannot sin. 1 John 3:9. And we become a New Creature in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17. But we still have a body that has not yet been saved and that still lusts after sin. And though, once saved, we will have an earnest and ongoing desire to repent, to obey, to love God WITH OUR WHOLE HEART, we can, if we take our eyes off of Christ, fall into even grevious sin, as did David. But what was David's reaction when confronted with his sin? Read Psalm 51. So if we have become saved sin will become increasingly anathema to us. And we will long for the Day when God compleates our salvation by giving us our New Resurrected Spiritual Body.

Thanks Oseas

Psalms 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

OSeas that is just saying God is not bound by times. He's from everlasting to everlasting!

Look at the previous verses to get the context.

Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

And again if Peter is speaking of how we can calculate a day in 2 Peter 3:8 then what does a "thousand years as one day". mean?

Oseas you have to factor that into your equation if it's a way to count down prophecy.

You can't just ignore the second half of this verse.

If it's a formula for time then it brings you a thousand years forward then a thousand years back which is no time at all.

I would re-examine this Oseas.

God bless.

Hello Chris,

Thank you again for your response. I have appreciated our back and forth on this sublect and I don't mind at all rehashing this topic that we have discussed in the past. Because in my view, while every teaching from the Bible is important since we are dealing with the Word of God, Himself, there is no more important or critical teaching than the Nature of Salvation itself. And if we are trusting in a salvation that is not the salvation of the Bible we are trusting in a lie, in escense a false gospel. That is the snare that certainly National Isreal fell into. And I believe, that the local churches and congregations, to one degree or another, have also fallen into the same snare in teaching a gospel where man himself, and not God ALONE, is ultimately in control of their salvation.

I think that to understand the true Nature of Salvation, one must understand the true nature of mankind apart from God's mercy in salvation. The Bible, I believe, is crystal clear in this regard. We read in Romans 3:10-18 and many other passages on the Bible the terible spititual condition of each and every one of us apart from salvation. We are Spiritually Dead and it is God that must make us Spiriyually alive " Eph 2:1. Just as Jesus raised Lazarus from physical Death and Lazarus played no part in that whatsoever; God must raise us from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life and we play no part in that whatsoever.

God did not look down the corridors of time before He created the world and saw that some would respond to the gospel and some would not. What He saw is the NO ONE would respond. But despite that dismal fact, God in His Mercy chose to save some. God does not tell us how He made that choice. But He did make it crystal clear that it was not because He saw that some were more likely to respond than others or that there was anything inherent in any one of us deserving of salvation. By nature we are all in rebelion against God and will never come to Him.

More to come

Dear Spencer,

No, Peter Apostle was not thinking what you are thinking Peter was thinking. Oh no, absolutely. Your thinking is according to Chris. But in fact, Peter apostle was mentioning what he knew about GOD's time, and it is written in the Psalm 90:4, so Peter having the same Spirit that was is Moses, he confirmed in his universal epistle what Moses wrote in his prayer to the Lord GOD in the Psalms 90.

By the way, Moses in his prayer said too: -->(90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. 12 So TEACH us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

GOD BLESS

Dear Spencer

Just to clarify, for your better understanding, broter SeanPaul around 21 hours ago(now page 2),he asked me saying'people mention GOD'S days as being 1 day=1000 of our years.Is this in the Bible?...where to find this? Please help'.

Then I quoted exactly as SeanPaul wrote trayng to help him. It's it.

But you, in your discernment, interpreted I was using Peter 3:8 to build the time line. In fact, I was only informing SeanPaul(in parentheses) were is written 'GOD'S days as being 1 day = 1000'. But I didn't just stop there, understand? I thought that through the time line he would advance more deeply biblically.

2 Peter 3:8

SIX PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ------------------DURATION

I- From Adam to the Flood-(Gen.5 plus 7:11)------1656 years

II- From the Flood to Abraham-( Gen. 11&12)-------427 years

III- From Abraham to Exodus-(Gal.3:17)-------------430 years

IV-From Exodus to king Saul-(1Reis6:1(480-84)-----396 years

V-From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ------------------508 years

VI-From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus ----------------587 years

Thus,from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus --------4004 years

From Jesus to our days(Christian Calendar)---------2023 years

Total from Adam to our days -------------------------6027years

If we use the 2nd half of this verse to count. then the math here should be 9027.

Because 1000 years is as a day and Jesus who is GOD as the Son of Man said I will raise in 3 days. Yes , No , Thoughts?

So is it because I am thinking like a human and can not perceive GODS thought as this passage in implying with time?

So confusing this is why so many people give up on the Bible.

S Spencer

Thank you for explaining what I also was thinking.

Chris

I prayed last night after reading this verse for at least a hour over and over, help me see. I looked at a seminary instructions and classes for Bible study to learn on how one should study.

They say keep 3 things in mind who is talking, who are they talking to, and what are they addressing. Also what you think is the mean can not contradict the Bible because the Bible is the truth.

So when I read that verse all I see is what you see, is Peter trying to explain God doesn't perceive time as we do. If you read the entire chapter. But the years does help explain why the genealogy and years are so tedious in Genesis.

But this is all I can think, and forgive me Jesus if I'm wrong, If you take this idea and apply it across the Bible then it must be true everywhere is could be applied, Yes? Remember Jesus nor any other apostil ever said this. If Gods day is 1000 year and God said I will raise from the grave in 3 days , see my problem? or is that's why the second part of the verse is there?

Hi SeanPaul.

2 Peter 3:8

I agree with Brother Chris, Peter is not giving specific number of years to calculate from;

If we look at verses 3-4 we see Peter is dealing with scoffers.

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation".

Verses 5,6 and 7 Peter reminds us that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth was destroyed by water and by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Now we come to verse 8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Verse 8 is giving us a picture of God's patience and longsuffering!

He's not setting there watching a clock drawing impatience.

It's explained in verse 9.

"Vs 9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Verse 10 tells us when the Lord comes it will be no count down. He's coming suddenly!

Vs 10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...

He mentions the longsuffering of our Lord again in verse 15.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Is saying there is no clock that governs God's patience.

God bless.

2 Peter 3:8

Thanks Oseas.

God bless you.

Amen Brother Chris.

I've seen great commentary on both sides of this topic.

Either way we're in Good company.

God bless.

Pray for those who are suffering violence , who have never commited a violent act .

Hello David, you seem familiar- did we already discuss this topic some months or years before?

If I remember right you don't believe in free will? If so, my challenge to that is then did you write this or someone else? Do you think God made you- or forced you to (beyond your will). If there's no such thing as choice, then how do you explain Paul saying he was wrestling with his fleshly temptation of sin? It's possible you just don't like the word freewill but might believe you are the one who chooses things, like if you are given a menu at a restaurant and order- is that truly you ordering a burger or someone else.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 KJV

"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee." Ezra 7:13 KJV

"Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways." Proverbs 3:31 KJV

"Choose." The Bible does say we have the ability (freedom) to choose. How many verses can you provide that says we have no choice whatsoever? God bless.

I agree David0921 that "receiving or accepting the gift of salvation is not contributory towards our salvation". What I meant by my comment was that salvation is received with gratitude as a response to what God has done & given to us - and this response is not contributory to our salvation, but a result of it.

However, to the rest of your comment (& we've been down this path before), I don't see eye-to-eye with you on it. I do believe that the Lord knows who will come to Him & He, by His Spirit, will draw that soul. But that soul needs to hear the Gospel, the Spirit will energize him to understand, be convicted, & repent. These aspects are not contributory to one's salvation, but are a result of the Spirit's operation in the life. Without these, then one must come to believe that a person is first saved by God's Work alone, then he will be enlightened & Spirit-charged so that he will repent of his sins. To this I don't agree, as it's 'putting the cart before the horse'.

When I read several Scriptures that confirm this, including Acts 2:21, "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost", they speak of a soul who repents, calling upon the Lord to save him - and when he is saved/forgiven, the Holy Spirit is given (all simultaneous I'm sure). The sinner's act of repenting & calling upon the Lord for salvation, I don't see as contributing in any way to his salvation, but a response from the heart as he is under the Spirit's convicting Work.

I miss quoted here. I meant to reference 1 John 3:9 not John 3:9

Indeed bro Giannis. Leaving aside the matter of the water (whether it means from the Word or the flesh), I too sense the difficulty in understanding John 3:9,10 (..."Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"). As a teacher of the Scriptures, Nicodemus should have picked up, even a little, on what Jesus was trying to convey to him. My thoughts though turn to Psalm 51:10, Ezekiel 11:19,20 & Ezekiel 36:25-27 as passages that should have alerted Nicodemus' mind to Jesus Who was pointing him to a coming spiritual re-birth. And maybe his questions would have centered around those passages & what Jesus was speaking about. Unfortunately, Nico's mind couldn't recall those prophecies. GBU.

However Chris,

I would not agree that our "receiving" or "accepting" the gift of salvation is contributory towards our salvation in any way whatsoever.

Whether or not an individual becomes "saved" is God's choice. Not our choice.

And if I am in anyway trusting that I am safe a secure BECAUSE I have taken some action in order to become saved or contribute to my salvation, I am not trusting in the gospel of the Bible.

And I don't think this is an insignificant point. It is fundamental to the Nature of the salvation program in which we are trusting.

Thanks bro S. Spencer. I can see from what you've shared, & bro Giannis has also added to, that if we look at Jesus' Words to Nicodemus as purely from a spiritual point of view/understanding, then of course "to be born of water" must have a spiritual connection & not physical. But of course, I don't read that verse in that manner, rather as Jesus' direct answer to Nicodemus' question, which can be paraphrased, 'Yes, there is a physical birth but there is also a spiritual birth/re-birth which I'm telling you about' - 'that a man has to be born, yes physically, but also spiritually to enter God's Kingdom'.

A couple of Bible commenters have even suggested that this being 'born of water' (or, born of the flesh, John 3:6) is a reference to the amniotic fluid which surrounds an embryo in the womb. That this fluid is the water (representing the physical nature of birth) that Jesus refers to, and then to the other birth, which Nico had no inkling about, which is the new birth, not physical but from God's Spirit. But to this meaning (i.e. amniotic fluid), I would be cautious about. Anyway, remaining open over such passages is the key to spiritual enlightenment & understanding. Blessings.

Thank you Chris,

And I agree absolutely that the "sprinkling of clean water" in Exekiel 36:25 is indeed a reference to the Word of God, the Gospel.

Thanks David0921 for your comment, to which I fully agree. And welcome back to this Discussion Page. When you quoted Ezekiel 36:24-32 and verse 25 states, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean...", I thought you intended to address the 'sprinkling of clean water' as reference to the Word, as some understand John 3:5 ('born of water'). However, you made no mention of this, so in respect of your comment, I agree, that salvation is all of God's Work - we contributing absolutely nothing to it, except to receive the Gift in brokenness & faith. GBU.

Becoming Born Again

John3:3-12

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Christ is here teaching Nicodemus and us something about the nature of salvation. The "water" is the Word of God, ie the gospel. As we read in John 7:38 and Rom 10:17.

The "Spirit" is God Himself as He applies salvation to the life of someone whom He is saving by miraculously giving them a New Resurrected Soul in which they have become a "new creature in Christ" and will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the law of God, ie to not commit sin. John 3:9 and 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is becoming Born Again, ie becoming "saved".

This is what God is teaching in Ezekiel 36:24-31

Hello SeanPaul. 2 Peter 3:8 can be understood in a couple of ways. One, similar to what Oseas has shared here, & the other (which I strongly lean to), is that Peter in this verse, is not giving us a specific number of years to calculate from; rather, that we are to understand that with God Who lives in eternity (i.e. outside of time), that even one of our earthly days, or a thousand, or even a million of our days, is to God as inconsequential & remains unaffected by them. God doesn't work based on our time scale but according to His Plan & Will for things to happen; and His Will is not governed by our clock. However, where certain days are given to us (e.g. Daniel 12:10-12, of the time of the Great Tribulation), then we are obliged to use those numbers to learn from. So I see a difference in how we are to read such Scriptures.

Thanks Giannis.

That is the way I have it as well.

God bless.

Adam,

I would askHow do you understand these verses?

Gal 4:19-31

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 2:16,27

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Rom 3:10-31.

Where is free will found in the Bible? Apart from God's salvation I see that I'm in bondage to sin and Satan.

Hello Spencer

This is how I understand it. Jesus says to Nicodemus that if one is not born again he can not see the Kingdom of God. So Nicodemus understands that Jesus is talking about a physical birth and asks Him how this can be done, enter his mother's womb and be born again? In his mind Jesus is talking about a physical birth. Then Jesus answers him and explains that he is talking about a spiritual birth. So these "water and Spirit" are the spiritual birth. Next Jesus talks to Nicodemus about salvation, verses 11-21. eg. "14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.". So Jesus talks to Nicodemus about having faith in Him in order to enter the kingdom of God. Faith is something that occurs when one hears the gospel and accepts it. That is why I don't take that water as the physical birth. In any case it can not be, in my opinion, the water of baptism. But what I don't understand is why Jesus is expecting Nicodemus to know these things as a master of Israel. How could Nicodemus knew about these? And from verse 11, I understand that Nicodemus had a doubt on what Jesus said.