Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 80

Dear S. Spencer,

I guess this shows that I am open to consider and perhaps align with the point of view another is making from Scripture. That is probably better than to be so set in ones theological approach to Scripture that one cannot even consider that an adjustment in thought may be in order.

At the time we were discussing the millennium in the past, I had not studied the topic much. You gave me some Scriptural support for you view and I appreciated that. As I studied further, I have said I fall more in the amillennial camp but not so totally. I also told you that I am still working through this topic. I would appreciate it if you would allow me grace to do so.

You are wrong to say that I study Christianity rather than Scripture. That is a low blow, S. Spencer, as you do not know how much I study Scripture or Christian topics, but you are assuming you know. That is wrong of you.

If I do get to where I will share more on this topic it will not because you have bullied me into doing so.

Whenever we have a discussion on topics concerning dispensational beliefs and eschatology, you treat me in a hostile way and denigrate me with unkind comments. So, I have to really be prayerful about if I will engage with you or not. I do not treat you the way you treat me.

I asked some important questions seeking biblical answers. This is a good thing. It is not out of line for me to hope to get adequate answers. And it is also not out of line for me to wait for another time to explain my biblical perspective. And in this instance, I will wait.

I have shared many postings explaining how I believe using Scripture. It is not a foreign thing for me to do as you seem to be implying. We are here to edify one another. Let's do that.

We should be able to discuss where we differ by sticking to the topic and not by throwing barbs at one another.

My desire is for peace and I believe we can have that in this discussion if you are willing.

Philippians 2:3 "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

Blessings

Dear S. Spencer,

I agree that the practice of hyper-spiritualizing Scripture is not a good way to interpret Scrpiture.

Bennymkje I had one of your posts show up in my email.

I didn't read it and is not interested in a dialog with you.

In the past we had a conversation or two but when you got out of line I decided to not read anything coming from you.

I hope you can respect that.

God bless

Hi Gigi.

One more thing before I turn in.

I was originally wanting Bennymkje to reply to the session when I start it but I am not sure that is a good Idea.

I don't believe it would be peaceful.

It was to show a hyper spiritualizing way of interpreting the Bible which is a huge error.

But I'm sure you and all has already seen it.

Good night

Gigi you said what you are wanting from dispensationalists that cite Scripture to prove their beliefs as being correct.

Gigi if we don't agree in the scriptures or understand the opposing point of view then scripture is not going to clear this up.

You should be confident and proud to expound on your Scriptural support.

Gigi a few years back you said you believed the Millennial reign of Christ was in Heaven "with no Scriptural support " and then I showed you Revelation 20:6-8 and that's all it took for you to change your mind!

Then another brother gave you a alternative idea and you ran with that saying you would accept anything as an alternative other than the way dispensationalists interpret scripture.

I suppose after further studying other doctrinal viewpoints you said you fall in the Amillennial category. (I found that interesting because so did Earl Bowman and Alex in the way they spiritualize the text.)

Gigi you hold to the least definitive way of interpreting scripture but yet you want definitive answers!

They don't believe in an actual Millennial reign of Christ here on earth.

You finally admitted you had to do more studying on eschatology and left the discussion without even giving any scripture supporting your views.

That is why I ask you to present your own definitive scriptures that supports your beliefs.

This is where my accusations come from saying that you study Christianity but not scripture.

Blessings.

Hi Gigi.

Yes Gigi it's been an attack on the way dispensationalists interpret scripture for a few years now.

As for the Holyspirit I don't believe he's behind this attack when there has never been a scripture based dialog coming from you to show where we error.

I believe the Holyspirit would have you use the word of God!

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15.

Gigi I'm not offended though it used to bother me. Not anymore especially when Brother Chris did answer your questions!

He gave you scriptures If you don't recognize the answers within those scriptures then give "correct" scripture support why you don't.

Gigi you asked for "OUR" answers not yours!

Gigi I know you didn't ask anything about the Millennium.

However I told you I will break down how I interpret scripture and I'm going to use the Millennial reign of Christ and the Promises to the fathers to do so.

I'm going to show in doing so how this form of interpreting the Bible is taking the text seriously, definitive and prophecy literally.

If one study the Bible he or she doesn't need for anyone to tell them how they come up with certain views within a doctrine.

for instance the word elect trips people up because they don't know who it applies to without carefully studying.

All you have to do is ask someone to share their eschatology views and you can tell right away how they interpret the Bible!

Gigi I do believe you was sincere on wanting to know how we interpret scripture.

Gigi please sit this exercise out, I'm going to have all who is interested to NOT give their point of view, but to display using scriptures on how they interpret the Bible starting with the Millennial reign of Christ.

It's not a debate just a exercise to see who's method is least definitive or twisted to satisfy a belief.

Bennymkje is welcome to join.

Ronald is welcome to join.

God bless.

John 14:9

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

Blessings

S. Spencer,

I do have a few more things to add.

you say the heart of my questions are how one interprets Scripture. While you may think that is my heart because it is very important to you how others interpret Scriptures. But for me, my questions are singularly focused upon dispensationalists giving Scriptural support to prove beliefs taught by this theological system. There is a difference between what you think you know of my heart and what I know as my intentions or aim. So I thought I would clarify this for you. Please take me at my word here. I mean no harm and am not interested in an argument. I just want to gain understanding of how dispensationalist prove their beliefs with Scriptural references.

As to you saying you need me to explain my own beliefs, I am happy to do so after I receive adequate answers to my questions.

I am not sure if you are seeking to understand my viewpoint more of if you are demanding me to explain myself to you in light of how your phrased this statement. I did not enter this thread to explain my viewpoints but to hear from others who believe differently than I do and increase how I understand them.

Dear S. Spencer,

In reading your response to Chris I was a bit confused by you terming this thread as an "onslaught".

I was just asking questions about common dispensational beliefs that I would like someone to bring to this discussion biblical proof of such beliefs. My intention was not to offend anyone or to rebut what others give for answers.

I look forward to reading what you will write concerning the millennium.

I have never said that I do not like how dispensationalists interpret the Scriptures, as best as I recall. But I know you have questioned how I interpret Scriptures again and again. I am looking for civil discourse here. I am hoping we can have that between us.

I cannot say that I will offer any comment on what you post. I may. But as at this time I do not feel the Holy Spirit is leading me in that way. I think you would agree that we should keep in step with the Holy Spirit. That is what I am trying to do.

Although I did not ask a question about the millennium, I do welcome your input on this topic once again.

If you need food go to your local food pantry. I will pray for you.

COGIC ADULTS MENS SUNDAY SCHOOL BOOK August 3, 2025 Isaiah 59:15b-21 KJV

West Angeles Cogic Church Cathedral Los Angeles California

My COGIC WORSHIP: 1Corithians 15:3-4 KJV I Worship God that gives a standard to Justice- Morals, Socioeconomic. I Worship God that wants you to speak his word by faith, hearing, seeing, speaking, live. V15b Paragraph 3 My Interpetation: I Worship God that in control of mind, body, soul giving salvation and is intercession. II.v17-21 My Interpetation: I Worship God giving me armour of God Ephesians 6:10-18 to intervene on my behalf guarding myself. V17 Paragraph 1 My Interpetation: I Worship God showing me as his own always on time doing everything he says to be done of his word to me for my benefit. V19 My Interpetation: I Worship God that gives you a good reputation and character in the LORDS name. God my Father to reverence him to enjoy the benefits of personal relationship with him. V20 My Interpetation: I Worship the spirit of God which is obedeince and eternal life.

Amen.

Paul was the vehicle by which that aspect was emphasized!

Amen Lbooth1955!

Thanks again for those scripture references!

God bless!

Amen Lbooth1955!

I agree and thanks for those scriptures and all that you do.

God bless!

Hello again GiGi,

I am very glad to see you refer to Matt 24 which talks about the Great Tribulation and events that will occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER. I am personally convinced that this chapter is talking about our Day, where God's Judgment has fallen upon the Churches and Congregations but God is saving a "great multitude that no man can number" outside the Churches. Once God has completed saving all of His elect, the events IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation of our Day will take place.

I totally understand that God's judgment upon the Churches is anathema to those that are in the Church who believe that the organized Churches and Congregations will continue under God's blessing right up until the end. But the Bible does not teach that.

A 2000 word limit is not nearly sufficient to demonstrate this from scripture and I wish that site guidelines permitted me to provide references where this is developed in detail, but they do not and I do not want to violate these guidelines.

We are living in a very unique time when God's judgment has actually begun. Yet God continues to save His elect at rate that may be far in excess of the Church Age which has ended. We do not see this with our physical eyes because there is no corporate organization representing the kingdom of God like National Israel or the Churches. We understand it by faith because the Bible declares it.

While I expect a tremendous amount of push back on this teaching from most on this site. It can be clearly demonstrated from the Bible. Perhaps I can provide some of the proofs for this down the road.

I would encourage anyone to spend time in the "prophetic" books of the Old Testament; particularly Jeremiah which is actually "today's newspaper" using National Israel and Judah as an example of what God is doing in our Day.

May God in His mercy lead is into Truth as we search the scriptures using the Hermaneutic that God Himself lays down in His Word.

1 Sam.8.18-20 "Tares"

God let the nation of Israel to choose their king only after this curse similar to what Moses administered in Deut.30.15-20

Here it is "protest solemnly unto them, and it is evident that Israel chose 'our king may judge us' and not God. In the Parable of the tares Israel is indicated as the tares that the enemy' Adversary slipped in. When Jesus was brought before Pilate we heard this nation or the 'Tares' shouting 'Away with him" They were vehement and nothing short of crucifixion would satisfy them, "Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar." Here we have the nub of God's warning. Now the text:

" And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day./ Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;/That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."

Havig severed connections from God what the nation demanded was still holding true. They were sons of the devil as Jesus said in Jn.8.44. It was true at the time of Old Samuel and it was still the same under the pagan Rome. The field framed by the word of God beginning to sprout but the tares all stood up as one to affirm that in Satan they believed and it was implied 'no king but Caesar.'

On Oct. 5 2023, some sons of Belial as their forefathers had done to Elisha in the time of kings mocked att some Christian pilgrims unprovoked and brazen in their lawlessness,-and it has been going on unreported and the same spirit to show who their father is,. There is a parallel kingdoms cheek by jowl as it were. This implacable bloodletting the Jews have been perpetrating on poor Gazans show how far apart are these two kingdoms.

Amen Brother Chris.

My focus will be on how one interpret the Millennium using old testament scriptures collaborated on into the New Testament.

The focus begins with is it taken Literally, figuratively or allegorical and most be shown definitively using scriptures.

I've seen individuals move the Millennium around to patch up their theology!

Blessings Brother, Enjoy your night.

Chris, thanks for you explanation

If we go back to 1 Thess. 4 which many dispensationalists quote as proof of the rapture as being separate from the Lord's second coming I would like to direct you and others who believe this Scripture is not about the second coming of the Lord at the end of the age to what follows the passage in Ch. 4:13-18. Chapter 5 is still speaking of this gathering of the saints to the Lord. You can read in Ch. 5:2-3 call this coming as being "the day of the Lord" that comes as a thief in the night. This parallels what is said in

2 Peter 3:10.

I know you have quoted this chapter verse 9 as believers not being appointed to wrath, but obtain salvation. Since this verse is speaking of being saved from sin and its punishment by the cross, I do think that it is referring to our final judgement as being of the blessed as opposed to the unbelievers who will be thrown into the lake of fire.

This section in 1 Thess, 4 concerning the gathering of the saints to the Lord also parallels Matt. 24 where Jesus describes the events of the end of this age with His second coming, "the day of the Lord". After describing many events that will occur prior to His appearing in the clouds as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth unto the wets, so shall the coming of the son of Man be. Vs.27. Then in vs. 29-31 it says that immediately after the tribulation the Son of Man shall come with a great sound of a trumpet and great power and glory with His angel who will gather (rapture) all of the elect from one end of heaven to the other and from the four winds (earth). This also corresponds to 1 Cor. 15:52. This chapter in 1 Cor. speaks of the coming of Jesus after which comes the end. vs. 24. This also says in vs 23 that it is at the end that are the saints resurrected.

This chapter is also speaking of the Day of the Lord.

Jesus and Paul never mentions a coming of Jesus before this time, therefore I do not think we should add in a "secret rapture".

Brother Chris, if I may.

What is the Rapture? It is a doctrine that began in the 1800s and is widely accepted today. The belief in it is so strong that many see it as a promise, a guarantee, that the Church will be taken to heaven and escape the great tribulation, which is often confused with the wrath of God. But is it true or just a deception? Isn't the rapture a resurrection? We see there are only two resurrections, in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:12-13, separated by a thousand years.

Nowhere is the Church shown in heaven; Revelation 19:7-9 is not about the Church. It describes the bride of Christ adorned with the righteousness of the saints. The marriage and the marriage supper will not occur until Revelation 21:1-2, which takes place after the new heaven and new earth. The angel shows John the bride, the Lamb's wife, who is not the Church, as stated in Revelation 21:9-11.

We must distinguish between the great tribulation and the wrath of God; they are not the same. Tribulation refers to the suffering and persecution faced by believers. We see in Revelation 12:12, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath. This is when he gives power to the beast, and the great tribulation begins. The short time Satan believed he had was 3.5 years, not seven. Revelation 13:5 mentions 42 months, which is 1260 days, or 3.5 years. The prophecy in Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, Jesus, and the time Israel has.

We do not see the wrath of God and the Lamb until after the sixth seal, in Revelation 6:12-17. This is when Jesus returns to earth, the earth is round, and when Jesus returns, it will be as in Mathew 24:29-31. We will then meet Him in the air, and we all come down together.

God bless,

RLW

Psalms 119:19

"I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me."

Psalms 119:20

"My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times."

Psalms 119:21

"Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments."

Blessings

Thanks brother S. Spencer. We'll wait and see how GiGi, or others, respond to our different approaches to this subject: yours, focussing on the Millennium period, and mine, from the point of the Great Tribulation. Either way, prophecy pointing to these periods cannot fail or be re-interpreted, or else we can do just about anything we like with it. GBU.

Thank you Brother Chris for offering those great scriptures and discourse on how some of us arrive to this doctrinal viewpoint.

I'm going to seek from others there theory of interpreting the Bible focusing on the Millennium.

There is three major viewpoints on the Millennium, as discussed in Christian eschatology,

Premillennialism,

Amillennialism, and

Postmillennialism.

These views differ primarily in their interpretation of the 1,000-year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20.

This is to compare how these three groups interpret the Bible.

We all fall in one of these groups!

The heart of Gigi's questions is how do we interpret the bible

I don't recall anyone of us signing on as dispensationalists when this onslaught begin a while back.

It was Gigi who accurately attached the label dispensationalists on to us because of the way we handled scripture.

In fact she stated she doesn't like the way dispensationalists handle scripture especially eschatology.

So she has been presented these scriptures before, now it's just a matter on how she handles them!

That is what put us in one of these categories mentioned above.

Premillennialism:

This view posits that Christ will return to Earth before the LITERAL 1,000-year reign

Amillennialism:

Amillennialists believe the 1,000 years is symbolic, representing the entire period between Christ's first and second comings. They see Christ as currently reigning spiritually in heaven, and there is no literal earthly millennial kingdom.

Postmillennialism:

This view suggests that the Gospel will gradually spread throughout the world, resulting in a period of global peace and righteousness before Christ's second coming. The Millennium, in this view, is not a literal period but a symbol of the influence of the Gospel on the world.

Views vary within these groups.

Im asking Gigi how do one fit the Davidic covenant and Abraham covenant into the Millennium after I explain my view.

Blessings

1 Cor 16:15-16

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

The principle of first fruits. You may not be the first Christian in your city, or on your block, or even on your street. But it is likely that you are the first and only Christian in some category of people. Perhaps you are the only Christian in your office. Maybe you are the first Christian in your family or in your friend group. Whatever the case, find the group of whom you are the firstfruit, become addicted to the ministry of the Gospel in that group and work until every last soul is conquered for Christ. And to those who find themselves the recipient of the labor, who have been saved by the efforts of a firstfruit, yoke yourselves to such a one and strive with them in he work.

If God and Jesus are the same, how did Jesus go up and sit at the right hand of the throne of God?

1 Cor.15.55-56) "The sting"

Everything possible was done to Israel but they gone bad, so much so God categorically tells Moses," for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way."(Exod.33.3) God pardoned Moses "And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word."(Num.14.20). He was willing to be blotted out of the book bur it was not for him to even think of it. Who was Moses but as a stand-in for his Son who became poor in order to make us rich must similarly suffer loss. For this reason God did not allow Moses to enter the Promised land for his own failure for giving glory to God before the people, as well as on behalf of the people. So we need look at the promise of God, "And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest."( Exod. 33.14)

It was personal with regards to death to which we shall come by and by. We have an example for it. God chose Moses even before he was born and His grace was evident: the Holy Spirit presents Moses and Elias at the mount of transfiguration:(Mt.17.3) Moses was all along as a sanctified one,- among the 144,000 on mount Sion."These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.(Rev.14.1-4)

What is the world of the Spirit? It is called the Land of the living,"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God otf Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."(Mt.22.32) Job's daughters though dead were present so in the latter half of Job God doubled whatever he suffered loss in the former, except in the case of daughters."(Job.42.12-15) Our understanding on death is coloured under law of sin and death but is not how the holy Spirit presents death. So Lazarus of Bethany though dead for four days already shall hear the call. While we study Israel under the kings we shall see it all the more clearly. In another post we shall examine them.

'For my sake' Brother Spencer? I could not agree with you more. You know what, I have a great congregation to whom David preached. Whatever written about Israel is for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come. " I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, thou knowest./ I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."(Ps.40.9-10)

How can I not when 'thy law is within my heart' Yea, Bro. Spenser, Open your eyes,

Phil.3.2 "False brethren" (3 of 3)

Jesus was to be the Saviour of the whole mankind so he testified before both Judah Iscariot and the nation of Israel He was the Word become flesh and what is the Word, it is the 'thy word' and sanctify them with thy word.( Jn 17.17). When God tells Moses of the ten spies who brought the evil report He says, ' and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice' Here is another ten:" and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life'(Rev.2.10) Tribulation creates martyrs, from Abel onwards till the time God in his wrath judges the world. "All these things must be accounted for(Mt.23.35). Why God in his power and wisdom seen His fulness resting in his Son is avenged. "Before Abraham was I am." So Ten Commandments were given as a mark of condemnation. Again when David is presentedas a man after my own heart, it is given in multiples of Three to coincide with the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. "David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years./In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah." (2 Sam.5.4-5)Rev.7 relates to 144,000 who shall stand in place as martyrs as Seth did in order to replace Abel.

Finally these heretics who conveniently avoid the text in order to make Israel as blessed from Abraham forget the text:"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"(Gen.2.4) 'In the beginning' refers to the day God decreed for his Son.(Ps.2.) The generation mentioned here refers to Jesus Christ who is before all things and by him consist.(Col.1.17-19) When Jesus says," Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation," he is referring to his Alpha Omega aspect.

Phili.2.3 "False brethren" (2 of 2)

Are the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel? Of course not.

God knew the betrayal of Judah as well as the nation of Israel Jesus was forewarned so he tells his disciples, " Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?/He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."(Jn.6.70-71) He was the Son of man as well as the Word become flesh. For this reason when he healed the leper he told him to follow the Law of Moses for a testimony unto the Jews. He was among them but not one of the, Two occasions he multiplied loaves and fishes where he collected 12 baskets of broken bits as the Son of man; and Seven baskets as the Word become flesh.Jesus Christ in his humanity cannot ignore what a believer is enjoined to do. Neither can he offend the Word that was with God. Seven as a whole number where it is the generation of Jesus Christ and it is what the decree establishes. He is the only begotten Son and the heir of all things. Ask of me' so begins Ps.2.8 and Jesus annotates it by asking, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?" (Lk.11.11;Mt.7.9-11) and Israel rejected him because their father was none other than devil.(Jn.8.44)

It is the Law of the Spirit who set the everlasting Covenant of seven days. As God tells Elijah of 7000 who have not bowed there knees before Baal,- as with 7x1000 is not actual head count but the Word which was with God.He presided over the the Covenant of seven days. These two millennia the first two chapters of the book of Genesis have been ignored or perverted to mean a week so heretics could foist Sabbath through back door over the unsuspecting believer. So we have CUFI and many other obnoxious practises.

(3 to follow)

Hello Chris,

If I may interject and respond to your comments to GiGi.

All of this really comes down to "how are we to approach and interpret the Bible".

A key principle of Biblical interpretation is that we MUST UNDERSTAND the God Himself is the AUTHOR of the ENTIRE BIBLE. Every word, every phrase, every letter of every word, in the original languages is from the Mind and Mouth of God Himself. This means that God is the one that defines how is using the specific words and phrases He has chosen to present Truth.

In other words the Bible is its OWN INTERPRETER and its OWN DICTIONARY. We must not impose our own ideas as to how a particular passage, or even a word, is to be understood until we have harmonized our conclusion with anything and everything God declares about that conclusion throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE. This is not easy to do and takes study and patience in coming to Truth. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, it requires God Himself to open our Spiritual eyes and ears and to give us understanding.

The other principle which many fail to adopt is that Christ, God Himself, spoke in parables; and WITHOUT A PARABLE SPAKE HE NOT, throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE.

This does not mean we are to ignore the literal meaning of words and phrases. For example, every historical event recorded in the Bible occurred exactly as recorded in the literal sense. But in the specific words and phrases God chose to record that event, He is teaching us something about the Nature and Substance of His Judgment and Salvation program. This is the parable or spiritual nature of the way in which God wrote the Bible. And God COMMANDS us to approach the Bible in this way. (Read Mark 4).

So when God uses the term "Israel" or "Jerusalem" or "Lamb" or "water" or "land", or "church", etc., what is He teaching?

If we fail to do this, the Bible becomes fragmented and seemingly contradictory; which of course it is not.

It is consistent and absolutely true and trustworthy.

More perhaps later.