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"Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers."
'Measure of your fathers'-One way the Spirit has defied it is in the innocent blood of prophets and people who stood in their way. For example what created fiery furnace in Egypt. Was it not the curse of not obeying the voice of the Lord? "Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,/Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them." (Jer.11.3-4)They sold their brethren Joseph in the time of Israel and from Jesus' woe to ye' tirade,"Ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,/And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."(23.29-30). At the end of the gospel we see them do precisely the opposite, and how they were eager to shed the innocent blood of our Saviour,.Thus the nation of Israel has done through generations and it is the generation of Jesus Christ where Abel to Stephen woul become martyrs.
Another clue we have for the Holy Spirit set the tag 'unto this day; to prove it the generation of Jesus Christ.After the Lord was risen there was among the Jews how to hush up his resurrection? " So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.:(Mt.28.15)
The Ten who sold their brother for 20 pieces of silver in fact was selling Jesus whom God had set as a double. Joseph was according to the Spirit was indeed so. Jesus Christ was before all things and by him all things consist."The number 10 is the number of condemnation while 30 is made up of 3x10 life of the Son. It is thus we place the rejection of Jesus Christ before Pilate was determined on the day they asked Old Samuel for a king. God had willed,"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father."
View on Christ's Millenniual reign is interpreted each according to his private interpretation. Truth of thy word when loosely pursued we have heresies. So we shall begin on the statement: "I am the truth."
One day is like Thousand years vice versa. God has decreed one day for his Son. Ps.2.7. So the Spirit usess 'unto this day' consistently. Similarly this day, in that day are all pendent to this day. It is called the generation of Christ. Gospel of St Matthew bigin s with it. All generations of Abraham or David must come up in frame of reference to his generation. Since I accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour I entered into this Millennial Reign. I am not perfect but in reining in many worldly passions and inclinations on a daily basis I am reigning with Christ. I am a branch to the true Vine. If I do not study the word by the grace of God I am nothing. I want to know the immeasurable riches and I call this kinship with Christ as branches to the true Vine as entering into the God's rest. Nothing of my works but his grace is sufficent for my daily needs.
But I do accept what you believe, even as you laid it out here concerning the Rapture, God's Wrath, Tribulation, His Second Coming, and the Elect. I don't think I can succinctly add anymore to what I had already written earlier which included these matters. It is clear to me that you understand that Jesus comes once only to gather His children to Himself (both the dead and living) & instigate God's Wrath upon the World (presumably, at the first with the War at Megiddo and then the supernatural events in the heavens and on Earth). Yet, I will follow with interest bro. S. Spencer's approach to this subject & comments offered, as its view is taken from the Millennium period on Earth. So, I think we'll leave it there on good respectful terms; both of us sharing our beliefs as we continue to study the Word, waiting on the Lord. Blessings.
But as Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 ("His Son from heaven, which delivered us from the wrath TO COME") and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ("For God hath NOT APPOINTED us to wrath (the Wrath of verse 3), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"). From these passages, some could say, 'well, God will protect His children from this evil and His Wrath, or God removes them to another location'; or does God, through Jesus, take us away altogether, that we won't be subject to His Wrath (commencing at the installation of the Anti-Christ), which the Church should not have to face?
Yes, we have always and will always face tribulation, sickness and death in this world - that which comes to all of us as living in corrupt bodies in a corrupt evil world. But when God begins to show His Anger against Christ-rejecters (beginning at the revelation of the Anti-Christ) & about to show them His Power in destruction, as they have never seen before, I ask, should the redeemed called-out Church be a part of God's Anger & Plan as well? If all this was simply a greater intensity of our trials & tribulations on Earth, then of course, we must face it with courage & faith. But if it is the commencement of God's Action against this evil World, then the Church cannot be a part of it, for it then places God's Salvation for us and our Adoption into His Family into great doubt & ridicule.
So this is where I sit, though I also realize that our definition of terms such as, Great Tribulation, God's Wrath, the Second Coming, etc. can influence how we read the Scriptures and the formation of our beliefs. So thank you again brother for your good & appreciated input. Blessings.
Of course, whether the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath have the same meaning or not, is again according to one's reading of the Scripture. As mentioned previously, 2 Thessalonians 2:6,7, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way", are probably the verses that to me, instigate God's Wrath/Great Tribulation which then gets progressively worse for the World.
If the One Who restrains (whether the Holy Spirit or the Church or something else for argument's sake), is removed by God or allowed to be removed by Him, it tells me that God has begun His action to allow the Anti-Christ, who resembles Satan incarnate (v9), to begin his reign, evil work, all in fulfilment of God's end-time Plan. In other words, it's all downhill from this point - as I see it anyway. Now, whether living believers will be present at that time of God's initial action against the World, or at some later time remove them, I can't say for sure (the Bible is unclear). Onto Page 2.
Without worrying about pre- or post- ideas, I would side with the post- VIEW.
For that is how I believe the word is meant literally.
Acts 7:55-56 - Stephen, before being stoned, saw Jesus at the right hand of God.
Romans 8:34 - Jesus is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us.
Colossians 3:1 - Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:3 - After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Mark 16:19 -
"In fact, the Lord Jesus, after He had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."
Adeus, friends.
Since Adam lived over 900 years, it is very likely he proclaimed what he knew of God, the sinful actions he and Eve took to corrupt all of his offspring, and the promise of one who would defeat the evil one who tempted them to sin to bring them ruin. The promise of a Savior was announced by God while they were still in the garden of Eden. This knowledge obviously was shared with Enoch and Noah.
Thanks for this piece of information. Hopefully all is well with this individual. We can certainly pray that all is well with him. I have been a little surprised at how long the moderators have been letting this slip by. No one in this forum deserves to be treated the way one individual has been doing for some time now.
I have been following the discussions on the Rapture/Second Coming of Christ/Dispensationalism. A lot of interesting things have been brought up on both sides. I know I've shared my views on the rapture and 2nd coming so I decided to sit back and just read and study.
I know very little about dispensationalism so that's not a discussion I am even in the least bit qualified to enter into. I have been recently within the last couple of days doing some on-line research. Some of it seems a little confusing to me because it speaks of so many variations of beliefs just within dispensationalism. I may fit into the category in some areas. I guess the more I research, the more I will find out.
Anyway, it still saddens me to see my brothers (and sister) in Christ being treated rudely and called names. I find it hard to just sit back and say nothing. I do hope the moderators can address this so it doesn't get completely out of hand. It's hard to just sit back and see some here being falsely accused of being a heretic. But I'm told "truth hurts?" No, truth does not hurt at all. It's the name calling that can hurt others!
On another note, I have been recently spending some time doing a study on the word "Elect." It has been my understanding that this word has been brought over from the Old Testament and refers to the Jews as God's elect. I know there are different views about the elect. Some say the Jews (which is my understanding), and some say the church. This is what I will be spending time on and hopefully I can post something on this in the near future.
Again, thanks for the information.
God Bless!!!
As we all are aware; man after Creation was in a sinless state and in theory could have remained that way in perfect bliss forever. Now God in His infinite wisdom knew what would happen in the fall; as His plan for redemption is seen in Genesis 3:14-15 so that Satan was defeated from the get go after his efforts to destroy the destiny of mankind. This also foreshadows the sufferings of Christ with the holes in his feet.
After Lucifer's rebellion there were two results; fallen angels and the rest who were still walking with God and serving Him and His purposes. They were then able to strengthen men and be in the backdrop with certain abilities they were given; but always putting the attention on the Lord and not themselves. Like the Godhead they will never lose their glory as they forever serve the living God. But the Godhead has ultimate and unique characteristics that elicit worship.
If we consider men early on there really even wasn't much worship happening as we see it now. Eventually with Cain and Abel we see the concept of an animal sacrifice reflecting the original animal killed to cover men's sin; most likely. There seems to have been a lingering communication with Adam and his progeny; even to Cain at this point. He; of course failed to heed the warning of not succumbing to sin crouching at the door.
It seems quite paradoxical given the whole wicked history of men and even the separation of Christ from the Father as something that was allowed to occur and be part of God's plan for redemption. All this suffering from the past all the way through to the end of the Tribulation ultimately spells doom for the lost; but for God's people necessitates; therefore ultimate trust in God and His future promises; even a new heaven and earth.
Even knowing the Lord this is more than I can bear thinking about in my own feeble strength. The Lord must therefore BE our life not just the center of it to live.
I remember the conversation and I said the 69th week ended when Jesus was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit becoming the Messiah. That started Him cofirming the covenant. It was 3.5 years later when He was crucified, in the middle of the 70th week. It was 3.5 years later when Stephen was killed, that ended the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.
I will try tomorrow to give you my best understanding of your question.
Gog bless,
RLW
When you called out to the kj admins. there's something that stuck out that worries me.
There's a guy that is over the moderators who scans the site to see if the moderators is moderating according to their expectations and he takes it seriously!
I'm hoping all is good with him because he normally answers the call when there's a problem.
Just a thought.
God bless.
Revised.
I didn't know you believed in the earthly millennial kingdom of Christ!
That's how much I have been paying attention to these eschatology discussions.
When is the last time you seen me put much time in one of these?
I'll tell you!
It was you and I around 2 years ago we were in Daniel 9. Specifically Daniel 9:24-27.
We were debating where the 69th week ends. I said with Jesus riding in Jerusalem on a donkey and you said at the stoning of Stephen I believe.
I haven't been interested in the topic but I saw a lot of back and forth with Lbooth and others and wanted to read in.
I'm still not interested in fully engaging in the eschatology topic but these recent debates reminded me of something I promised to do a while back.
Examine the way people fit the Millennium into their theology.
I want to use this idea to see how people interpret scripture to build their theology.
You ruined your interview when you told me you believe in the earthly millennial kingdom becauseI do too. Just kidding,
So I take that you take all the promises to Abraham and King David literal.
I know you don't believe in a rapture so let's not bog down there.
Can you tell me how you interpret the events after the tribulation period on into the Millennium when Satan is chained and when he is loosed.
Also tell me who populates the Millennium?
Thanks Brother Ronald.
God bless.
I'm not sure why you would have me to view what you posted to Brother Chris.
I'm not engaged in the rapture topic.
I'm only interested in how one approach scripture when examining the Millennium.
However let's end this conversation.
I said my peace and I stick with it.
God bless
We see this in Matthew 16:24. But then again in Luke 9:23 it says that we are to do this daily. Basically, Jesus is giving conditions of discipleship. He starts out by saying that if anybody desires to come after Me. This means to come behind Him and follow Him wherever He goes. This would be the opposite of someone saying I believe in you and then going their own way. If anybody desires to come after me (that's the first condition), let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
The word "deny" means to reject. After a person surrenders to Christ, their human nature, ego, and desires continue to function. The Bible tells us that human desires (flesh) come up against, and attack the things of the Spirit as He is trying to lead us in our life.
Jesus said if you're going to make a decision to come after me and follow me, then you are going to have to reject yourself. Whatever we think, or feel, we're going to keep thinking; we are going to keep feeling, but whatever it is, we are going to have to reject it!
Secondly, and to your question on "take up his cross daily," this literally means day after day. What this is making reference to, and we see this in Romans Chapter 6 which tells us that Jesus died our death. In Galatians Chapter 4, it says that those who are of Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Paul said in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ lives in me." You see, when Jesus substituted Himself to die our death on the cross for our sins, that was our death. The Bible says we were crucified with Him.
This is what He crucified. I have died, but I keep living because Christ is in me. So, I find that my daily battle is not against Satan. I find that my personal life is trying to get down off that cross and back into circulation in the world again. But Jesus said take up his cross daily. That's what we are to do.
Hope this helps.
God Bless!!!
I desire this for my life. Thanks for the encouragement.
Amen to your prayer. May Jesus be lifted up in this situation and may He give comfort and healing of hurts and unresolved matters in this family. We give praise to You, Jesus, O LORD our God, and trust You to draw near to the broke-hearted, those undergoing loss of a loved mother, and that You will bring all your will to fruition in the lives of this family. In Your name, Jesus, we pray, believe, and wait for your loving, good answers.
Mark 4:17 "And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended."
Deuteronomy 4:30 "When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;"
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Matthew 24:9"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Blessings
This is my understanding on the matter.
The Old Testament repeatedly promised Israel a literal, earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah from Jerusalem. God covenanted to give Abraham's seed the land forever ( Gen. 13:14-15; 17:8) and swore to David an eternal throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 89:3-4). Prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, and Zechariah described worldwide peace, justice, and worship centered in Jerusalem ( Isa. 2:2-4; 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44; Zech. 14:9,16-17). The Jewish expectation was simple: Messiah would come once, overthrow Gentile powers, restore Israel, and rule immediately-no concept of a second coming or a rapture.
When Jesus came, this expectation shaped all responses. John the Baptist and Jesus proclaimed, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" ( Matt. 3:2; 4:17). Crowds hailed "the kingdom of our father David" ( Mark 11:10) and tried to make Him king ( John 6:15). Many "thought that the kingdom should immediately appear" ( Luke 19:11). The disciples expected thrones and rulership ( Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:29-30) and even after the resurrection asked, "Wilt thou restore again the kingdom to Israel?" ( Acts 1:6).
The crucifixion brought deep confusion-"We trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel" ( Luke 24:21). Even hearing of His death puzzled them ( John 12:34), since prophecy spoke of Messiah's eternal reign, not His suffering first.
Israel's rejection of Messiah delayed the kingdom. God then revealed through Paul the hidden "mystery" ( Eph. 3:1-9): Jew and Gentile in one Body, a heavenly people awaiting the rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18). The promised earthly kingdom will still come-but only at Christ's second coming ( Rev. 19-20), after the Church is removed and Israel's prophetic program resumes.
Blessings to all.
Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof
1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Blessings
In reference to this commit...
"Scriptural support that teaches Jesus would have gone on to establish His kingdom on earth if the Jews would have accepted Him as their Messiah at His first coming"
I'm sorry but this particular subject has an overwhelming amount of scripture to support it in the OT, having said that I would refer anyone who desires to truly understand it go to youtube and look up graceambassadors and search for ...You Are Not Spiritual Israel.
This is a 5 part series titled You Are Not Spiritual Israel.
Blessing to all!
You can do yourself a favour, get understanding and not of man but of God. Knowledge of the holy.
In terms of natural world if out of Africa origins of man is accepted God breathed into his nostrils so when God framed the world it is not some bushman from Kalahari who got white washed but God who would draw him to himself. Biped or quadruped we are all created for his glory. You may be short of stature but like Zacchaeus found salvation for his house. First prove yourself to save your house before pontificating.. What world are you living in anyway?
How do we become the sons of God according to the Scripture? Only by the New Birth - John 3:7b ...Ye must be born again. 1Peter 1:23a Being born again... Even in todays venacular there is certainly a major difference in being born, and being adopted.
Now in Romans 8:23b ... waiting for the adoption. It is clear according to Scripture that the moment we are born again that we are presently sons of God, so what is meant by our waiting to be adopted? Adoption in Bible times had a different application. The Jewish tradition, and other Middle East cultures of the day was that when your natural born son became of age, he would go through a celebrated ceremonial practice and be adopted by his own father. This was not to place the son into the family, but rather to bless the natural born son, with the recognition of now being mature. Now, this adopted son was blessed with full rights and had authority. The adopted (mature) son's word now had the same authority as the father. He was no longer under tutors and instructors. No longer could the servant(s) of the family have authority over the child, rather now the adopted (mature) son had full authority over the servant(s). Galatians 4:1,2, 5, 7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord over all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. read v. 5&7. Being predestinated unto the adoption of sons refers to the fact that every born again child of God, is to become mature in the faith. No where in Scripture is it said that God predestinates people to hell or heaven. Every time the word "predestination" is used in any form, it always refers to us becoming like Christ.
Rule #2
" for without me ye can do nothing." (Jn.15.5)
First an instance. Jesus who never had a place to lay head on has to do his ministry from wherever he can. Was God indifferent to his creature comforts? Oh no God had first framed the world by his word and it was as he separated the dry land from Seas. The Covenant of seven days made faith both subject to his authority. He also set apart a body. " And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship." He chose the vessel of Simon to preach the gospel as he pressed the doctrine of God and we call it as the Sermon on the mount." What are these natural features but framed by the word? Simon was willing to put it for his master's use."And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net." It is how man's disobedience made labour wasted. The vessel and Simon are counted as out. In the Law of Moses similarly ox and the owner are counted as one. Since ox is his livelihood. In letting the shp at the disposal of Jesus he let him enter into heart as it were, a spiritual space.
"Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught."(Lk.5.4). The word was sent forth and the sea knew who was their master. So when it gets boisterous and at his rebuke the sea is calmed.. This is how the world framed by the word works. Only you exercise faith to follow the word. Similarly God sent his word, healed them and delivered from their destructions.(Ps.107.20) In this forum I find it strange some members chasing others to pray over. It reminds me of lawyers chasing automobile crashes for custom. Can the sick not pray for themselves in faith? The same Loord over all but no know nothings have to make a show of their piety. Bah!
From my understanding, there is no requirement for this forum that those who post have to do any off what you say. We are free to respond or not, to give our viewpoint with or without Scripture referencing, and free to just be a silent reader.
Thanks for this well thought out reply.
I will say that I do not see in any of these Scriptures a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. i stand by what I wrote to you concerning the Day of the Lord as the one and only second coming of Jesus with the gathering of the saints at that time only.
There is nothing in the text that say that the elect in Matt 24 are only Jews. That is an inference based on your dispensational viewpoint overlayed upon Scripture. 1 Thess. 1 is a word of encouragement to the church and is not a time designation connected to 1 Thess. ch. 4 that indicates a pretribulation rapture.
I believe that the statements of believers not being appointed to receive God's wrath is concerning our judgment at the end of the age. Unbelievers will recipients of God's wrath forever in the lake of fire.
I do not see these verses as identifying the tribulation as this wrath. But Jesus' second coming is when He brings God's wrath upon unbelievers. At His second coming all believers will be resurrected, gathered and changed, glorified and will descend to earth with Jesus at His coming. All of this happens in the same event at the end of this age.
When I read what Jesus said to the disciples in answer to the events of His coming at the end of the age, I believe these statements concern all of mankind, not just the Jews or Israel because Israel/Jews are not identified in His statements. Jesus never mentioned a pretribulation rapture even though He mentioned what happens prior to the tribulation and that indeed the tribulation will occur.
Thanks for your perspective. I will take it under consideration.
Please read my reply to Chris concerning 1 Thess. chapter 4-5 where he is giving what he considers proof of a pretribulation rapture. I used Scripture in my review of what he claimed as I often do.
And, for the record, when I use the phrase "those dispensationalists" I in no way mean it derogatorily nor to insinuate that dispensationalists follow a cult. you have read erroneous ideas into my words. I am sorry if you misunderstood me in this matter, but I think that perhaps you are so bothered by me that you misconstrue what I say in negative ways due to your animus towards me when we discuss beliefs that you and others hold concerning the coming of the Lord and other tenets typical of dispensational theology.
Anyway, I do not wish to continue our conversations in the vein it has descended because it will not bring peace, as I can tell. I wish you well today and I sincerely do look forward to what you will be presenting.