Discuss Romans 4

  • Lbooth1955 - 7 months ago
    Justified by faith, works or both?

    Abraham's justification must be understood in its two contexts. Paul states in Romans 4:2-3, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." That faith-alone moment in Genesis 15:6 shows Abraham's justification before God-apart from works.

    For the Body of Christ today, Paul is clear: justification is a gift of grace through faith in Christ's finished work ( Rom. 3:28; Eph. 2:8-9). Works cannot be added, for salvation is secured by faith alone in this present dispensation. Is this true or not?

    James, however, writes "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" ( James 1:1). He does not say he is writing to the Body of Christ, the Church revealed to Paul ( Eph. 3:3-6). There is no mention anywhere in James that these twelve tribes are part of the Church, the Body of Christ, it's just not there.

    Instead, James presents justification as faith plus works, to whom? According to scripture it's not the body of Christ.

    "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" ( James 2:21-24).

    In Israel's prophetic program, justification included works as part of salvation. Faith that did not produce obedience was dead and could not save under covenant law (cf. Acts 2:38; Matt. 24:13).

    Thus, Abraham illustrates both truths. Paul shows his faith justified him before God-pointing to our salvation today in Christ by grace alone.

    James shows his works justified him before men, and in Israel's program, that was required for salvation. To conflate these is to erase the God-given distinction between the prophetic kingdom program and the mystery Body of Christ.

    The Greek word for justification is (dikaisis), meaning the act of declaring righteous, a legal acquittal before God. Rooted in , "to justify, declare just."

    G&P
  • Lbooth1955 - 7 months ago
    The Apostles (before Paul)

    The twelve apostles were sent to Israel under the kingdom program ( Matthew 10:5-7; Galatians 2:7-9). Their preaching emphasized repentance, water baptism, and works consistent with faith ( Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; James 2:17-24). For them, faith that did not produce works was considered dead. So, none of the twelve are recorded as preaching "faith without works."

    The Apostle Paul

    Paul, however, is unique. He is the only apostle who clearly taught justification by faith alone, without works of the law.

    Examples:

    "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." ( Romans 3:28)

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works..." ( Ephesians 2:8-9)

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." ( Romans 4:5)

    Paul preached a new revelation of grace ( Romans 16:25; Galatians 1:11-12), distinct from the kingdom message of the twelve. His gospel revealed that salvation is entirely a gift, apart from law-keeping or works.

    The twelve never preached "faith without works." Their message tied faith with repentance and obedience under Israel's covenant program.

    Paul alone preached faith without works-the gospel of the grace of God for Jew and Gentile alike.

    Question...Should works follow after we are saved

    Yes - but it's very important to keep the order straight.

    Salvation Is by Grace Alone-Period!

    Paul makes it absolutely clear: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." ( Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved by faith alone in Christ's finished work, not by anything we do before or after.

    see pg 2
  • Chris - In Reply - 7 months ago
    Glad to see you up and around Lbooth1955; may the Lord give you complete healing post-surgery.

    The Word of God is clear, as you shared from it, that we are truly forgiven of past and present sins, with Jesus' Blood availing to cover future sins as well. The verse you shared ( Hebrews 10:12) impressed me. Actually, going back a couple of verses, we read, "By the which will (i.e. Jesus' Will to proceed to the Cross) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" ( Hebrews 10:10-12).

    The comparison is given here: that of the continual monotonous offering of sacrifices by the high priest which could do no more than stay the Wrath of God from a sinful obstinate people; compared to the Sacrifice of His only Begotten Son Whose sacrifice was not only perfect and sufficient to deal with the sin that separates us from God, but that there was no need for any further form of redemptive work & recovery that could possibly add to it or be any better. In demonstration of God accepting such a Sacrifice, He raised His Son from the dead thus justifying those who are trusting Him for salvation ( Romans 4:24,25; 1 Corinthians 15:17), declaring us 'no longer guilty' nor worthy of eternal punishment. Onto Page 2.
  • Lbooth1955 - 7 months ago
    To all that be i Christ,

    "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2nd Cor. 5:19

    2 Corinthians 5:19 teaches that in Christ, God reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing (counting) people's sins against them. This reconciliation is complete, covering sins of the past, the present, and even those of the future, because Christ's sacrifice was once for all.

    Past Sins: The believer's past life of sin has been fully forgiven through Christ's blood. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" ( Colossians 2:13). God does not hold a believer's former life of sin against them: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus" ( 1 Corinthians 6:11).

    Present Sins: As believers still live in the flesh, we sometimes stumble, yet Christ's sacrifice continually avails for us. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" ( 1 John 2:1). His righteousness is always applied to us: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" ( Romans 4:8).

    Future Sins: Because Christ's sacrifice was once for all, even future sins are covered. "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" ( Hebrews 10:12). This does not encourage sin but assures us that no sin can separate us from God's love. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life nor things present, nor things to come shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" ( Romans 8:38-39).

    Any thoughts?
  • Chris - In Reply - 8 months ago
    The following would be my four reasons:

    a. Jesus Christ's perfect Sacrifice, once and for all people. 1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 10:9,10.

    b. We have been justified, declared not guilty, by that Sacrifice and faith in Him. Romans 5:1,2.

    c. God has imputed Christ's Righteousness in us, making us holy. Romans 4:22-24, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    d. God has adopted us into His family, never to abandon us. Ephesians 1:5, Galatians 4:5,6.

    Hope this helps.
  • Lbooth1955 - In Reply - 9 months ago
    P3

    Question...Should we can't mix the kingdom program (preached by Peter, James, and John) with the mystery gospel given to Paul, focus on right division of Scripture ( 2 Timothy 2:15). Let's affirm that all Scripture is inspired and that both Peter and Paul were called by God. The issue isn't about rejecting any part of the Bible but understanding God's progressive revelation.

    Peter and the 12 preached the kingdom gospel-a message prophesied in the Old Testament ( Acts 3:21-24). It focused on Israel, the coming earthly kingdom, and required repentance, water baptism, and obedience to the law ( Acts 2:38; Matthew 19:17). This message was based on Jesus being Israel's promised Messiah and King, And was the correct message for that time.

    In contrast, Paul received his gospel by direct revelation from the risen Christ ( Galatians 1:11-12). Paul called it the mystery, which had been hidden from ages past but revealed through him ( Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:3-5). His message centered on justification by grace through faith alone, apart from works ( Romans 4:5), and introduced the Body of Christ, a new creation made up of both Jews and Gentiles with a heavenly hope, not an earthly kingdom, this is key. (not a earthly kingdom)

    Mixing these programs leads to confusion-especially on salvation, baptism, and the church's identity. In Acts 15 and Galatians 2, even the apostles agreed that Paul had a distinct ministry to the Gentiles, apart from the kingdom program of Peter and the 12. Paul even said, "Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" ( 1 Corinthians 1:17), showing a break from the earlier kingdom requirements. "BAPTISM WAS A KINGDOM REQUIREMENT"

    Understanding these differences helps us rightly divide God's Word and see how the church today operates under the dispensation of grace, not under Israel's kingdom law. This isn't rejecting the gospels or Peter or the other 11-it's honoring God's design by keeping the messages in their proper place.

    God Bless
  • Lbooth1955 - 9 months ago
    page 2

    The Importance of Slowing Down

    In contrast to quick or superficial Bible reading, a slow and careful study focuses on the context, grammar, historical background, and authorial intent of each passage. This method pays attention to words like "but," "therefore," "now," and "mystery," recognizing that each word was inspired by God ( 2 Timothy 3:16).

    By slowing down, we allow the Bible to interpret itself. Instead of forcing a passage to fit a preconceived theology, we ask: What does the text actually say? What does the context reveal? Who is being addressed-Israel, the Gentiles, or the Church, the Body of Christ? What covenant or dispensation is in view?

    A rushed reading can lead to confusion, especially when Scriptures appear to contradict one another. But when taken slowly and rightly divided, these "contradictions" often vanish, and the harmony of Scripture becomes evident.

    Apparent Contradictions in Scripture: Real or Resolved?

    Let's explore some commonly cited examples of biblical "contradictions" that, when studied slowly and without denominational bias, reveal deeper understanding:

    1. Faith vs. Works for Salvation

    James 2:24 - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

    Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    At first glance, these verses seem to contradict each other. One speaks of justification by works, the other by faith without works.

    But when we consider audience and context, the contradiction disappears.

    James was writing to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" ( James 1:1)-believing Jews under the kingdom program, where works demonstrated living faith (see Matthew 5-7).

    Paul was writing to Gentiles in the body of Christ, saved under the gospel of grace, where faith alone justifies apart from the law.

    Different programs, different audiences, different purposes-but no contradiction.
  • Lbooth1955 - 9 months ago
    Many believers struggle to understand the Bible because they read it through the lens of denominational traditions.

    These traditions, though well-meaning, can act as blinders-limiting our understanding and sometimes causing confusion when scriptures appear to contradict one another. However, when we remove these filters and approach the Bible slowly, word by word, we begin to see the harmony and clarity within God's Word.

    Taking the Bible slowly means paying close attention to context, audience, and key words. It allows the Scriptures to interpret themselves without forcing preconceived doctrines onto the text. For example, while James 2:24 and Romans 4:5 seem to disagree on faith and works, rightly dividing the Word reveals that James was addressing believing Jews under the law, while Paul was teaching salvation by grace to the Gentile church.

    Paul emphasized "rightly dividing the word of truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:15), meaning we must distinguish between God's dealings with Israel and the Church. The gospel of the kingdom, preached by Jesus and the Twelve, differs from the gospel of grace revealed to Paul. Recognizing this prevents confusion and helps us understand God's unfolding plan across different dispensations.

    Studying slowly and without denominational bias allows believers to grasp deep truths and spiritual unity, avoiding the contradictions that arise when different programs/dispensations in Scripture are blended. God's Word becomes clearer, not by changing it, but by letting it speak for itself.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 9 months ago
    Amen Brother Jesse!!

    Well put!

    In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    When we recieve Christ we recieved LIFE!

    We recieve Christ Spirit! ( A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT)

    Christ Spirit cannot die!

    We have been baptized by the Holyspirit into eternal life! We have eternal life now.

    Eternal NEVER ENDS!

    We were baptized into his death.

    Our old man is crucified with him, he can never hurt us with our standing with the Lord!

    We stumbled in these corrupt bodies every day! Even in thought!

    And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

    1 John 1:8 says "If WE say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    John is talking to saved people! Not someone who has lost their salvation!

    John included himself! (WE)

    There will never be a time here in this world where you will ever have no sin.

    So if anyone can lose Christ/Salvation then no one was ever saved and never will be.

    You also see the work of Christ as our advocate in Romans 4:6-8.

    Romans 4:6-8 reads, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    Blessed is the man to whom the Lord WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN.

    We're covered with Christ righteousness!

    It's the heart that has changed in a true believer.

    There is no desire to sin.

    It grieves Christ Spirit that we now possess.

    We're forever changing in the likeness of Christ but we will never be perfect until we are delivered from this body of this death.

    Thanks again Brother.

    God bless.
  • Lbooth1955 - In Reply - 9 months ago
    The Kingdom Gospel preached by Peter and the Grace Gospel revealed through Paul represent two distinct programs in God's redemptive plan.

    1. Peter's Kingdom Gospel (Faith + Works) - For Israel and the Little Flock

    Peter's message centered on Israel's prophetic hope, the coming earthly kingdom, and the Messiahship of Jesus. This gospel required faith in Jesus as the Messiah, but it also included repentance, water baptism, and adherence to the law, as seen in Acts 2:38:

    "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." ( Acts 2:38, KJV)

    Key elements:

    Audience: Jews (especially "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" - Matthew 10:5-6)

    Content: Jesus is the promised Messiah; repent and be baptized.

    Requirement: Faith plus works (baptism, continued obedience).

    Goal: Entry into the earthly kingdom promised to Israel ( Luke 12:32 - "little flock").

    James 2:24 supports this...

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

    This shows that under the Kingdom Gospel, works confirmed faith for salvation, especially for the Jewish remnant.

    2. Paul's Grace Gospel (Faith Alone) - For the Body of Christ

    Paul preached a new, previously hidden "mystery" gospel revealed to him by Christ ( Galatians 1:11-12; Ephesians 3:1-9). This message was not based on Israel's covenants or prophecy, but on grace alone through faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Key elements:

    Audience: All (Jew and Gentile alike), forming the Body of Christ.

    Content: Christ died for our sins and rose again.

    Requirement: Faith alone (no works, no law, no baptism required for salvation).

    Goal: Salvation unto a heavenly inheritance ( Philippians 3:20; Ephesians 1:3).

    Romans 4:5 is definitive:

    "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is

    Did they both preach Jesus as Savior, of course, but the requirements for salvation changed with Paul.
  • Ronald Whittemore - 9 months ago
    1 Peter 3:18-20:

    Part 1

    I understand this is debated, but this is my understanding.

    1 Peter 3:18-20: 18, For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. This was a once-and-for-all sin offering, as mentioned in Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 9:11-14, to bring us to God so that God can now dwell with humanity through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    It is God who quickens the dead, as stated in Romans 4:17, by the Spirit. Jesus, being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit. Jesus was dead for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, the grave/tomb. He was quickened, which means brought back to life, when He was resurrected in His glorified body. Jesus is the first begotten of the dead, Revelation 1:5, the Firstfruits of them that slept, 1 Corinthians 15:20. Sleep, the Greek word koimao, meaning to put to sleep, be dead.



    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. By the same Spirit that quickened Jesus, Jesus went and preached/proclaimed to these spirits in prison.

    Who are these spirits who were disobedient in the time of Noah? Angels are spirits, Psalm 104:4, Hebrews 1:7. Devils/demons are spirits, familiar spirits, evil spirits, unclean spirits. Humans have a spirit, but are never called spirits. Humans are mortal; the soul who sins will die, and the dead know not anything. Immortality is a gift from God, and in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we find our hope for eternal life.

    We see this long-suffering in Genesis 6:1-8. 120 years were given for repentance, but we see that only eight souls were saved by the water.

    See part 2
  • GiGi - In Reply - 11 months ago
    Hello, Edina1

    The righteousness of God is perfect holiness and sinlessness. God alone possesses this righteousness. Our Savior Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, possessed this righteousness being without sin nature from Adam in His incarnation and living a perfectly holy and sinless life of obedience to the Father. He never sinned once as a human. As the divine Son, He could never sin because God is incapable of sinning

    So the righteousness of God a human needs to be justified by Him is Jesus' righteousness. When we come to believe in Him, we receive His righteousness. It is imputed to us, and God accepts this imputed righteousness as our own and justifies us.

    Romans 4:6, 11; 5:17, 18: 9:30; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9; Heb. 11:7; Jer. 23:6, 33:16 all speak of this righteousness that is of God alone and by whom we receive it in Jesus Christ for our justification. It is the only righteousness that God accepts as justification and leads to us being accepted by God.

    Amazing how God has provided ALL we need for eternal life, godliness in this life, salvation from sin and death, deliverance from the devil and God's just wrath, sanctification throughout our life in Jesus, and glorification in the life to come after we are resurrected. There is nothing that God leaves out from our total redemption and fitting us for His eternal kingdom. We are saved by His wonderful grace according to His mercy He chose to give us before the creation of the world when He elected us in Christ to be saved and to be united to God through our union in Jesus Christ.

    Always sets me to praise God when I consider these sure truths. Hallelujah
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 11 months ago
    Hi Azzan77,

    Thank you for your reply. I understand and know the verses you have shared. Many on this site share the same understanding as you, and if we differ, we should be inspired to study, not to prove we are right and you are wrong, but in search of the truth. My understanding is that Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, in the plan of God, Revelation 3:14.

    Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:20. Everything started with Jesus; God, knowing the end from the beginning, says things that have not been as they have been, Romans 4:17.

    We should pray and clear our minds of preconceived biases, as Jesus said, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear." John 8:24 is the same with us today, if we do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, who God sent and He shed His blood and died for us, we will die in our sins, John 3:16, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Bronco wildtrak 1 - 1 year ago
    Part 1 a

    The Jews were started with Abraham.

    Genesis 17:9

    And God said untoAbraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

    God called Jacob Israel.

    Genesis 32:28

    And he said, Thy name shall be called no moreJacob, butIsrael: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

    The twelve tribes of Israel started with Jacob's twelve sons when they became a nation in Egypt . In Genesis 49, Jacob blesses his sons, who become the fathers of the 12 tribes.The sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.

    Genesis 49:28

    All these are thetwelvetribesof Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

    A true Jew is from within ( spiritual).

    Romans 2:29

    But he is aJew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Jesus Christ took the seed of Abraham in the flesh.

    Hebrews 2:16

    For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed ofAbraham.

    Because of Abraham faith, he became a Jew inwardly.

    Hebrews 11:17

    By faithAbraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    Romans 4:16

    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith ofAbraham; who is the father of us all,

    Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
  • Bronco wildtrak 1 - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Jesse, I like your illustration of wine and water. Apostle Paul talks about meat offer to idols, we have to make our decision in Christ Jesus how to handle in Faith.

    Let me tell you, wine makers will not admit to adding water, but some do, it's all about adding profit to the bottom line.

    Apostle Paul's gospel was constantly being added by other false apostles and followers . They wanted to add circumcision and works.

    Galatians 1:7

    Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and wouldpervertthe gospel of Christ.

    It's all about Jesus Christ faith in his grace that we believe for Salvation.

    Romans 1:17

    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed fromfaithtofaith: as it is written, The just shall live byfaith.

    Romans 3:28

    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified byfaithwithout the deeds of the law.

    Romans 4:16

    Therefore it is offaith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of thefaithof Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    I know that you think I'm making all this up, but the truth is, Apostle Paul is a special person to Jesus Christ and we should take notice. I know you might have knowledge , but God hide secrets that only Him will He reveal.

    Deuteronomy 29:29

    ThesecretthingsbelonguntotheLordour God: but thosethingswhich are revealedbelonguntous and to our children for ever, that we may do allthewords of this law.

    May God Almighty bless these people in the word of truth, Chris , Richard H Priday , Giannis , Fuji ,

    GiGi , Ronald Whittemore , Jesse , Bennymkje.

    Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 this is the only way to Salvation for today and its believing only if we Follow the epistles of Apostle Paul.
  • GiGi - 1 year ago
    GOD'S FAVOR

    Pt. 2

    God is said to have favor on Noah and Abraham. Moses, and Israel in the OT. He did so in order to use these people to serve Him and accomplish His will in history in unique ways. He delighted in them because He had chosen them to be favored. I think it is important that we do need to often remind ourselves that our blessed standing before God as His child is not because of anything we have done or decided, but because it pleased God to show His favor upon us, to select us, even before He created anything.

    That is a very profound thought. God knew He would bless us with His favor because He chose us to the praise of His glory aforehand! The Scriptures often say that so-and-so found favor in God's sight. But the reality is that the person found out that God placed His favor upon them, not that they earned it in any way.

    Those who are favored of God know that God is with them and that nothing can happen to them apart from His good purpose ( Romans 8:28). When we have the favor of the Lord, we rest in quiet confidence that our sins are forgiven ( Romans 4:7), we are within the plan of God ( Psalm 86:11), and that He is there for us at all times ( Isaiah 41:10; Matthew 28:20).

    When someone has the favor of God upon their life, it means they carry an endorsement from heaven. God smiles upon them and approves of their pursuits and destinies.

    Psalms 5:12 says "Surely, LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." The only righteous people are those who have Christ's righteousness imputed onto them.

    His goodness, compassion and lovingkindness

    To have the Lord's favor means that the Lord is in accord with an individual and has shown gracious kindness towards them. When we think of someone who has the favor of God, we think of someone in whose life we see tangible evidence of God's approval.

    See Pt. 3
  • GiGi - 1 year ago
    GOD'S WRATH

    Pt. 3

    God's wrath is not capricious, driven by changing emotions and passions, as man is. Rather, it is a timeless stern, terrifying stance of His nature towards evil in all of its forms. His wrath is an inescapable reality toward a sin-cursed creation.

    Every cemetery is a testament to God's sentence on sin in mankind. His anger and intolerance of sin is a real and it is deadly always. He is zealous for His holiness and therefore will not withstand sin in His presence. Even if He delays His justice, He will never cease to preserve the holiness and purity of His Presence.

    God is not hasty in exercising His wrath. He is slow to anger ( Exodus 34:6-7). In His wisdom He determines how and when He will enact justice against sin. This slowness to exercise His anger and wrath should be a motivation towards repentance ( Joel 2:15) and never a license to engage in carefree sin and rebellion against Him. Exodus 34:7 says that He will not clear the guilty. (also see Numbers 14:18)

    In the NT from the preaching of God's wrath by John the Baptist to the Wrath of the Lamb in Revelation the truth of God's just wrath pervades the books of the NT and speaks on this attribute in harmony with what the OT teaches about God's wrath. From Jesus and the apostles, salvation is presented as a rescue from God's wrath ( Mt. 3:7; Lk. 3:7; Mt. 5:22; 18:5; Mk. 9:48; Jn. 3:36; Acts 10:42). Peter says that they were commanded by Jesus to preach of God's judgment. ( Acts 2:14-36; 10:42)

    Romans 4:15 explains how law-breaking invites God's wrath. Verse 9:23 describes how freely chosen sin fits sinners to be vessels of God's wrath, deserving of all He has willed this wrath to include: eternal punishment, torment, separation from God's Presence, and anguish. Revelation 6:16; 14:10 assign the execution of God's wrath, justice, and judgment to Jesus.

    See Pt. 4
  • Jesse - In Reply - 1 year ago
    (Romans Part 10):

    Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Justification comes to us through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The word redemption means to purchase a slave out of the marketplace for the purpose of setting him free. So, Jesus purchased us from out of the marketplace of the world, where we have been the slave to sin, and He has set us free!

    Romans 3:26 - To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Two things about the Lord. He is the just one, the righteous one. And He is the justifier. He makes people just or righteous. I have no righteousness or justness about me in order to acquire justification or righteousness. He is the just one, He is the righteous one, and He declares or credits people's account with justification and righteousness. In the Greek, the same Greek word is translated both righteousness and justification. It is a legal term that has to do with lining up with all the requirements of the law.

    Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: That's not what it says in the Greek, but the King James translators want to get the point across. God forbid! I don't know if I would have used God's name in there to try and get the point across. But it literally says "May it not happen," a strong optative in Greek to express impossibility.

    Romans 4:17 - (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Interesting because it tells us that Abraham believed two things about God. First of all, that God is the one who quickens the dead. The word quicken means to make alive. God is the one who takes dead things, dead people, and makes them alive.
  • Poppybrown75 - 1 year ago
    "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." I John 1:8-10

    "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:8

    If you have to die and go to Heaven or hell, it just makes sense that a fellow should go to Heaven, doesn't it? I want you to go to Heaven and that is what we are doing. Isn't that something? Just stop and think how ridiculous it is to try to talk a fellow into going to Heaven. To have to holler and scream and beg and plead and pry and kick and beller to talk you into going to Heaven is, to me, one of the most absurd thoughts in the world. You ought to be jumping at the chance. You ought to be begging, "Preacher, tell me how. Tell me how."

    It ought to be that anybody who knows he's got to die would have enough sense to want to go to Heaven when he dies. So, we're just preaching very, very simple messages. Right to the point. Tonight I am going to speak on the subject, "Who Is In Hell?" And I say this lovingly, if you don't know you're saved tonight, know before you leave.

    Don't let pride or denominational background or your so-called "Christian heritage," or your good deeds send you to hell. Don't let them! Don't live in doubt about where you're going when you die. Just look at the thing square in the eye and say, "Okay, I'm going to Heaven. I'm just going to do it. I am going to do whatever is necessary to go to Heaven." And tonight, if you listen very carefully, I can explain to you, as simple as ABC, how to get to Heaven.

    "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

    BY; JACK HYLES

    COME LORD JESUS
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 1 year ago
    Brother S Spencer,

    The first Adam, his disobedience brought sin and death into the world, Romans 5:12-19. The last Adam by obedience to God brought forgiveness and life, the resurrection from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.

    Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed, their hearts were uncorrupted and free from sin. After they ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened, their consciences were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin replaced the purity they had. They had a sense of fear and disgrace due to their disobedience.

    The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things, their view of their nakedness should be covered. Nakedness was not a sin, but a fallen perception of nakedness brought shame and sorrow they now felt.

    As God covered Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their shame/nakedness. Our nakedness of shame can be covered with the garment Isaiah 61:10 given by Jesus. We in Jesus shall not be found naked, but clothed, with the garment of Christ's righteousness, our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome.

    Concerning those that do not die in the Lord, that do not watch, and keep their garments will walk naked, their sins will be open to being seen, Revelation 16:15 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Revelation 20:15.

    Every human being, whether they're saved or unsaved, and regardless of their culture, ethnicity, or background, has a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. Inside this conscience is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit Romans 9:1 we can repent and be covered, if not we will be naked and found guilty. We cannot hide what is in our conscience, it records every good and evil we have ever done or thought. I feel this is where we are naked or clothed. Romans 4:6-8 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 1:19 Hebrews 9:9 Hebrews 13:18 1 Peter 3:21.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Giannis - 1 year ago
    Faith or works?

    Let's go again and examine Abraham's faith..

    Romans 4:2-4, "2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

    Above it says that Abraham was justified by his faith. Let's see how James describes Abraham's justification.

    James 2:21-22, "21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

    In contrast? No,not really. What James says is that a working faith must result in good works, otherwise it is considered dead, v26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    Is James talking to atheists or christians? Definitely his epistle is addressed to christians. What does he tell them? That their faith must produce works in order for them to be justified

    Since some of us hold the idea that if we are regenerated and the Spirit of God dwells in us, then it is inevitable for us to produce works, then we must explain, "was Abraham somehow obliged by his faith to sacrifice his son or it was up to him, his free will, to decide whether he wanted to sacrifice Isaac or not? The answer is that it was up to him. He could had decided not to sacrifice Isaac. It was entirely up to him, not to God. God had nothing to do with his decision to obey or not.

    Similarly our obedience to God and the subsequent production of works in our life is not an automatic process like somehow we are programmed to do works, but it is entirely up to us. We can, but we can not do what the Spirit commands. When are we justified? When we decide to have works that result from our obedience to do what we read in the Bible. Otherwise our faith is in vain, dead, resulting in no salvation. All that is not on God, it is on us
  • Giannis - 1 year ago
    Regeneration before or after faith?

    Since some of us hold the doctrine of regeneration preceding faith, let's go and examine the case of Abraham.

    Romans 4:2-3, " 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

    Romans 4:9-11,"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: ..."

    If one holds the idea that a unregenerated heart can not believe and repent, then they must explain how it was possible for Abraham to believe in God so that his faith was reckoned for righteousness. Was Abraham already regenerated when he believed to God or not?

    Firstly regeneration did not exist before Christ.

    Second, verse 10 says that he believed in God when he was uncircumcised and so he received the sign of circumcition for his faith. If we correspond corcumcision in the OT with new birth in the NT, then we conclude that faith precedes new birth.

    Romans 4:23-24, "23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"
  • Oseas - 1 year ago
    GOD had planned to make man in His image,but how,once He is Spirit,as whether He was alone?

    GOD revealed this to Moses about 2500 years after Adam-Gen.1:26.How could man see an image of the Spirit?What is its image?It would be impossible to describe,unless it be materialized physically.This explains why Israel always was tempted by the Devil since the OT to make an image of GOD to worship,and they made even a golden calf.

    According the Word,first GOD needed to show the IMAGE of He Himself,that's what GOD did,thus JESUS was born in the turn of the fourth to the fifth Day or fifth millennium,Aleluia!!! JESUS was no longer in the bosom of the Father,the Word.GOD sent JESUS about 4000 years after Adam,on GOD's clock it was midnight,so a new Day,the fifth Day was rising when JESUS was born. JESUS said: My Father works hitherto,and I work-Jo.5:17,actually still very recently JESUS still was in the bosom of the Word,i.e.GOD,but now He already was in person working together with GOD Father,at the age 30,then He revealed His Father was still working,although was still the beginning of the fifth Day.But Jesus knew what He was talking about,He said:I and my Father are One.

    GOD-the Word-sent His only begotten,"He loved the world,He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,but have everlasting life.GOD sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;but that the world through Him might be saved.He that believeth on Him is not condemned:but he that believeth not is condemned already,because he hath not believed in the NAME of the only begotten Son of GOD,i.e.JESUS.And this is the condemnation,that light is come into the world(in the fourth GOD's Day- Genesis 1:16),and men loved darkness rather than light,because their deeds were evil"- John 3:16-19.

    GOD Father could fulfill His promise to make man in His image,as He planned-Let US make man in our image,after our likeness:GOD calls those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17.
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Oseas

    Hey brother just one last thing to consider.

    Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.

    1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1 Isaiah 53:5-11 Romans 4:14-15 Galatians 3:18-19 Hebrews 9:14-15.

    2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21 Hebrews 10:8-11 John 1:29 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 3:5 Psalm 32:1 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 8:3.

    3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

    4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 2:24.

    5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 Matthew 11:11-15 Mark 1:14-15 John 5:36-40 John 6:27 Acts 3:18.

    6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.

    Jesus said it in John 19:28-30.

    God bless,

    RLW
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Hey Sonofman 1973

    God's eternal purpose

    Jesus the Messiah/Christ God's only begotten Son is the purpose, I do not know if I am reading your question correctly, may you and others have more or different understandings.

    1 Corinthians 2:16 tells us we have the mind of Christ, but no one can know the mind of God. 2 Peter 3:18 tells us to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus. All began with Jesus; Jesus is the beginning of God's plan. Isaiah 45:18 Isaiah 46:8-10 God and there is none like Him, He declared the end from the beginning His counsel (His purpose and plan by His will) shall stand and God will do all His pleasure, Psalms 33:11.

    God is not in our time the end of His plan is as the beginning God's plan was completed when He made it, we have the Bible, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit His plan is made known to us as our time comes to be, as in Ephesians 1:10-12 to be the praise and glory to God.

    God declared from the very beginnings of history, Acts 17:24-26 there is but one human race, we all are of the same blood, and in Jesus Christ we become brothers and sisters. In God's plan, it is finished, nothing will change. In God, it is finished already to Him who is from everlasting to everlasting, Psalms 90:2 and how He can "calleth those things which be not as though they were." Romans 4:17-18.

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    God bless,

    RLW
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Justification. Sanctification and Glorification.

    Part 5. J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul and James View Justification.)

    Therefore, we see that when Paul uses the term justification he is talking about a man's relationship with God; when James uses the same term, he is talking about a man's relationship with the world. One is perpendicular, and the other is horizontal.

    Paul and James View Faith.

    The same procedure runs true in their use of the term faith. Again, they mean something different. When Paul talks of faith he is talking about that which is toward God. Paul says that saving faith - a faith that is genuine and real - will transform a person's life. Paul said of himself,

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. ( Philippians 3:7)

    A real revolution took place in his life when he came to Christ. Looking again at Galatians 3:6, we read that "as Abraham believed Godit was accounted to him for righteousness." And then in Romans:

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ( Romans 4:5)

    Paul is speaking here of that which we bring to God. The only thing that a sinner can bring to God is faith in Jesus Christ. When James writes about this, he is not talking about faith toward God but about the works of faith. So Paul is talking about the root of faith, and James is talking about the fruit of faith, but they are both defending the citadel of faith.

    Here in James 2:14.

    James is not talking about the works of the Law. The faith that James is talking about here is professing faith, that which is phony and counterfeit. Paul refers to the same idea when he says in 1 Corinthians 15:2, "unless ye have believed in vain." Paul also wrote, "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). James simply says that the faith which saves you will produce works-"works of faith.

    See Part 6. Paul and James View Faith.
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Justification. Sanctification and Glorification.

    Part 4.

    J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul vs. James in the Use of Words)

    Examining the context.

    Therefore, the confusion rests in a misunderstanding of their use of the three words: justify, faith, and works. If we understand what each means in his use of these three words, we shall find out that Paul and James are not in conflict.

    Paul and James View Justification.

    In the interest of clarity, let us find out what Paul and James really meant when they used these three terms.

    The first term to come before us is justified or justification. When Paul uses this term it always means justified in God's sight. He speaks of how the sinner down here is made right with God. He is never justified by works before God, but he is justified by faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only thing that God accepts. In fact, Paul makes it very clear:

    For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God. ( Romans 4:2)

    So we see that when Paul uses the word justification he is thinking of the sinner's position in connection with and before God.

    Now when James uses the term justification he is not thinking of it as being before God at all. Rather, he is thinking of justification before men - how a Christian is justified before men - and he makes that clear:

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. ( James 2:18)

    In other words, James says, "I am talking here about justification for people who don't believe it until they see it. I am talking about justification before men." Then he makes that perfectly clear again, for a little later he writes,

    Ye see [not God sees, but ye see], then, that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ( James 2:24)

    See Part 5. J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul and James View Justification.)
  • S Spencer - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Justification. Sanctification and Glorification.

    Part 3

    ABRAHAM.

    Genesis 22:1-18.

    Vs 14-18. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh, as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD; for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son; That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Was Abraham justified by works? Yes.

    Scripture says that he was justified by works. ( James 2:21-24)

    Do we have here a contradiction to the apostle Paul? Did not Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith - not by works? Paul makes a very specific statement in Romans:

    "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath something of which to glory, but not before God. ( Romans 4:2)

    Then over in Galatians 3:6 we read, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

    Is Paul and James writings in conflict on this point? NO!

    Here is an article by J Vernon Mcgee explaining this Paradox.

    Paul vs. James in the Use of Words.

    May I hasten to state that Paul and James do not conflict at all. They are in entire agreement. As someone has said, "Paul and James do not stand face to face, fighting against each other, but they stand back to back fighting opposite foes." The whole problem lies in the fact that they use the same words, but with a different meaning altogether. They are discussing the same subject from different viewpoints. This you will find upon examining the context.

    See Part 4.

    J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul vs. James in the Use of Words)
  • Ronald Whittemore - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Chris,

    Part 3

    I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.

    My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4 Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.

    Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.

    In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.

    "Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.

    Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.

    See part 4 sorry I am slow.
  • Oseas - In Reply - 2 years ago
    Tunney

    Greetings in Christ JESUS

    Yes,one plants,another waters,but GOD gives the increase.JESUS said:in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,Gather ye together first the tares,and bind them in bundles to burn them:but it shall be in the end of this world.And gather the wheat into my barn.Yes,our GOD will give the increase(The Word is GOD,self-executable),and you know that He calls those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17

    JESUS said,he that reapes receives wages,and gathers fruit unto LIFE ETERNAL(it's marvelous):that both he that sowes(JESUS sowed)and he that reaps(under the command of JESUS)may(both)rejoice together

    Re.11:15-18

    15The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever

    16And the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats,fell upon their faces,and worshipped GOD

    17Saying,We give thee thanks,O Lord God Almighty-JESUS-,which art,and was,and art to come;because thou has taken to thee thy great power,and has reigned.(GOD calls those things which be not as though they were- Romans 4:17.The Word is GOD,self-executing)

    18And the NATIONS were(WILL BE)angry,and GOD's WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear His name,small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth

    Mat.25:31-34&41&46

    31When the Son of man shall come in his glory,and all the holy angels with him,then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

    32Before Him shall be gathered all nations:He shall separate them one from another,as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

    33And He shall set the sheep on His right hand,the goats on the left

    34Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand,Come,ye blessed of my Father,inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

    41Unto them on the lft hand-Depart from me youCURSED...


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