Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 213

DEPRAVITY

Pt. 4

I wish to use this excerpt because it explains this topic so well and identifies so many Scripture verses.

Excerpted From: Got Questions:

What Does It Mean that All Sinned?

Romans attests that in Adam, all sinned. Theologically, this has been called "original sin" over the centuries. Original sin does not mean that we are guilty of Adam's sin, but that we inherit a sinfulness that is transmitted from Adam to all humans. No human is exempt from being sinful and corrupted.

Humans are driven to sin, enslaved by this sinfulness to continue to sin and to rebel against God, as these Scriptures say:

John 8:34

Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.'

2 Peter 2:19

They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

Titus 3:3

For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures-living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.

Romans 6:16, 17

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:20

For when ye were the slaves of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 3:10-12 quotes Psalm 14:2-3 and Ps. 53: 1-3 saying that no one does what is good, not even one, no one understands the things of God (spiritual matters) because the god of this world has blinded us so that we cannot see the glory of Jesus in the gospel.

Paul also says that all humans are hostile to God, at enmity towards Him, His enemy, dead in sin, and enslaved to sin, we do not seek Him nor can we please God nor submit to His law. Elsewhere we are told that it is man's pride that keeps Him from hating his sin and submitting to God.

( Romans 2:1; 5:10: 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Eph.2:13; Ecc. 7:20; Ps. 14:2; 36:1-2; Is. 53:2)

See Pt. 5

DEPRAVITY

Pt. 3

Another view is that the statement "all have sinned" refers only to personal sin arising from our sin nature. After clarifying in Romans 5:13-17 how personal sin is imputed and then spreads, Paul explains why "all die," even if they have not committed personal sin. The reason all receive this "death sentence" (5:18a) is that, through Adam's disobedience, all were "made sinful" (5:19a). The verb made means "constituted"; thus, the sin nature is an inherited condition that incurs a death sentence, even in those who are not yet guilty of personal sin (5:13-14). This inherited condition inevitably spawns personal sin when conscience matures and holds a person accountable as soon as he chooses to knowingly transgress the law (2:14-15; 3:20; 5:20a).

We are all sinners because Adam passed on his sinful condition that leads inevitably to our personal sin and death. All share Adam's death sentence as an inherited condition (the "sin nature") that is passed down to and through the human race and that every child brings into the world. Even before a child can be held accountable for personal sin, he or she is naturally prone to disobey, to tell lies, etc. Every child is born with a sin nature.

"The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God" ( Psalm 14:2). And what does the all-seeing God find? "All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one" (verse 3). In other words, all have sinned."

See Pt. 4

DEPRAVITY

Pt. 2

As far as our relation to God and His holiness and righteousness, man is wholly depraved. He is comprehensibly and entirely affected by Adam's fall. This term speaks of lacking the perfection in holiness and righteousness that God is, not just by a little bit. Rather, Adam's sin produced in every human a corruption of the good, sinless, and God centered life Adam was created with in such a way that no human can return to this state Adam had in the beginning in their sinful state of deadness.

It also means that with Adam's sin, death (the penalty for sin) comes to all humans. Death is at work in a human being even from conception. David says that he was sinful from his mother's womb and conceived in sin.

Ps. 51:5

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

This does not mean that David committed sin while in the womb nor that it was sinful for his parents to have relations that led to his conception. David is testifying to his awareness of his corruption by sin in his entire being from the moment his life began and that the sinful nature was at work in him from his conception onward.

It means that in Adam, because of his first sin, all humans are conceived as sinful beings.

"Augustine explained Adam's transmission of his sin to us with a theory known as "federal headship." Augustine taught the concept of "inherited guilt," that we all sinned "in Adam": when Adam "voted" for sin, he acted as our representative. His sin was thus imputed or credited to the entire human race-we were all declared "guilty" for Adam's one sin.

See Pt. 3

Good evening.

We are getting snow here it the Pacific Northwest. It is lovely.

I am ready to post the next section in the series I am working through: The Condition of Fallen Man. May some be blessed by what I present and certainly check Scripture to against what is give here. I do not have all the answers for sure. Please respond if you feel led to do so.

MAN'S UNREGENERATED STATE BEFORE GOD

In this section I want to address what many call "man's depravity" (as it is commonly termed). I prefer the term "pervasive or comprehensive corruption". By this term, it does not mean that humans are as evil as they could ever be. This is obvious in the way interhuman interactions can be loving and helpful and caring. Rather, in relation to God, humans are corrupted in all of their being by sin. There is no part of a human that is unaffected by the sinful nature. Therefore, all of our thoughts, motives, words, emotions, impulses, choices and actions are tainted by sin.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Isaiah 64:6-7 Says that we are not basically good and that everything we do that we consider good is like filth to Him because our hearts are so wicked we are not even aware that our motives and purposes are sinful though we will to do good. Even our flesh, blood, bones and all of our organs and systems are corrupted by sin. Therefore, as soon as we begin to live we begin to die. We become ill and are diseased to some degree. No one has perfect health or soundness of body and mind in the way God first created Adam and Eve in their flesh, blood, bodies and mind.

See Pt.2

Hello Brother Spencer,

You are very welcome!

(Ephesians Part 10):

Ephesians 5:1 - Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

The word be is literally become. And the word followers is the word imitate. What is special about this word is that MIMETAI in the Greek has to do a mimic, a person who performs mime. In those days, the mime would express himself through facial expressions and through actions on a stage in order to produce the story.

Paul picked up on this phrase. He mentions it three times in his letters about imitating him. It doesn't mean follow him. It doesn't mean to copy him. It means to have the same expression in your life that Paul does, same story, same spirit, and same life. Therefore become mimes of God as dear children.

Ephesians 5:4 - Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Just to share with you a summary statement of the technical expression in Verse 4, what he's saying is the evil that is lived out in the world, you should not make jokes out of it.

There are people who are dying in their sins. And sometimes we play the role of the drunkard, or the person on drugs, and we have a good laugh about it. But we're making mockery of someone that is losing their soul because they are involved in those kinds of practices.

So, all these things, the immorality, and all uncleanness and covetousness, not only should it not be named amongst us that we are doing it, but we should also not make jokes about it, about sexual immorality, uncleanness, or covetousness!

(Ephesians Part 9):

Ephesians 4:14 - That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

That we henceforth, or from now on, be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried around by every wind of doctrine, and that's happening today. Young believers are being tossed around by every wind of doctrine. And by the sleight of men. The word sleight, KUBEIA, and you can kind of hear it in the word (cube), and it's the word for dice. By the gambling of men, and cunning craftiness, which is one Greek word that means to work every angle.

Whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Now that's a nice verse, but that's not exactly what the original says. It says whereby they methodize the error. They make a system the error. They take the error and systematize it and say that the end justifies the means, and anything goes, just as long as we get the job taken care of. And they gamble with people's souls.

Ephesians 4:31 - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, which means yelling, and evil speaking, which is the word BLASPHEMIA, slander, let all of this be put away from you, with all malice: Malice means human hurt.

Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Literally become kind one to another. The word kind is the word useful, which is described for us as tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.

(Ephesians Part 8):

Ephesians 4:3 - Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The word endeavoring means top priority. Tolerate one another in love and make it your top priority to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:12 - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

These apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor teachers are for the perfecting of the saints. The word perfecting, KATARTISMOS, means to mend. It's a medical term that has to do with the mending of broken bones. It's also mentioned about the disciples, that when Jesus called them, some of them were mending their fishing nets.

The word mend is the verb form of KATARTISMOS. There are different views as to what perfecting of the saints is. Some translations translate it equipping of the saints and they say that you take people into a classroom, and you equip them and teach them how to be salesman for Christ. That's not what it means. It means the first thing a new believer needs to do to be on track is for their life to be mended.

Second phase: for the work of ministry. The word ministry is DIAKONOS which means service. Before people can be involved in the work of the Lord, they must be far along in the mending process. Churches take young believers, and they put them to work, while in private, their life is falling apart, their family is falling apart, their marriage is falling apart, and they're trying to find an answer by staying busy at church. That doesn't change anyone!

So, number one, for the mending of the saints. Number two, for the work of ministry. And thirdly: for the edifying, or development of the body of Christ. The word edification is a construction term that means to build a house. So, after a person is mended, and after they've been serving the Lord while they continue to be mended, they are then capable of participating in the growth process of the body of Christ.

(Ephesians Part 7):

Ephesians 4:1 - I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

He says, that you walk worthy of the vocation, or calling, wherewith you are called. None of us are worthy from a human standpoint. But the Greek word for worthy means balanced, or equal. You go down to the marketplace and put an item on one of the balances, and you would put money on the other side until it equals out. And that's how much the item is worth, and that's how much you pay for it in the marketplace. He's saying live worthy of your calling.

Ephesians 4:2 - With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

With all lowliness, which means a humble frame of mind, or a lowly frame of mind. With all humble mindedness, and meekness, which means openness. With longsuffering, or slow in human reaction towards others. Longsuffering is exampled by two participles. Number one, forbearing, or supporting one another in love; It can even mean to tolerate which would fit in better with longsuffering.

(Ephesians Part 6):

Ephesians 3:19 - And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

We're complete in Christ. We're not lacking anything. We have all of Christ. Now the word filled, without getting too technical, because even in the book of Acts, the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit leaks out and you got to get filled up again.

PIMPLEMI is the Greek word for "to be filled," and it has to do with having your human senses taken over by something. In other words, Christ is in me but sometimes people see me as just myself. Other times, the Holy Spirit fills my human faculties, and He uses me to speak or to understand, or something. He takes over my human faculties. That's what it means to be filled. I always have Him in His fullness. But Paul is praying that His fullness would become full over me and in me in all of my living of life, that I might be filled with all of His fullness that's already there.

Ephesians 3:20 - Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

He says, now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think. You can't piece together words like that in any literature better than that. He is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think!

All that I'm complaining about, all that I'm asking the Lord about, He's doing much more. And He knows so much more. And it's according to the power that is working in us. The word working is the word energy. According to the DUNAMIS, the power that is energizing in us.

Hi GiGi. Firstly, warm(!) Christian greetings & belated wishes on the occasion of your recent birthday. Trust it was a good one, even to have a little welcome snow around you to help brighten your special day. Where I am in Aust, we get no snow at all, but we certainly enjoyed the snow very much when visiting friends in Colorado several years ago.

Actually, until this discussion on the Lord's Body & Blood and its relation to the Bread & Wine, I always believed that if you belonged to the RC Church then transubstantiation was understood & accepted without question; and if not part of that Church, then those elements were simply emblematic. So, it has been great reading & of interest to me, to read that even amongst the non RC, there can be views that are somewhere in-between (as also evidenced by some of the early Church fathers). So I will bear these things in mind & see what further help I can gain, if any, from the Lord's Spirit. Thanks for your input - with blessings & sincere wishes once again.

Dear Sister,

I will be praying or your requests. Thanks for sharing them with us. May you and yours be so blessed with the work of God in your lives.

Thanks Brother Jesse, great study!

On to Ephesians!

Thank you , John chapter 13 took me back to Leviticus 8 especially because of verse 9 where Peter says : not my feet only , but my hands and my head . Leviticus chapter 8 verse 23 : And he slew it ( the ram of consecration ) ; and Moses took the blood of it , and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear , and upon the thumb of his right hand , and upon the great toe of his right foot .

Matthew chapter 10 verse 14 .

With regard to humility , it's not something that comes naturally to most of us , we have to actively work on putting others before ourselves and not looking to impress the world or the people of it , but rather be conscious of the absolute fact that God sees us . All day every day , and he expects certain behaviours and attitudes from us , 1st Timothy chapter 6 , the whole thing , is very good at reminding me what I am , what I am not and what is expected of me . I don't always do the right thing but I ask God to always let me know when I haven't . You can't repent of your sin if you are not conscious of it . We must never forget that we are sinners by nature and without Christ in our lives , we would remain estranged from God because of our sinfulness . How much must God love us and want us close to Him in that He has devised such a pure and perfect means to reconcile us to Himself . Love is all , His love for Jesus ,His love for us , Jesus's love for God and Jesus's love for us . Jesus's obedience to God's Will . All we have to do is believe and trust and rejoice in God's love and mercy .

Hello Giannis,

Thank you for your kind response. I do lean towards your belief concerning partaking of Jesus' body and blood. I just can't say that I truly understand how this come about when we celebrate communion.

Growing up I attended Catholic Mass at times with my friends who were Catholic. The Mass includes many wonderfully reverent and praiseworthy prayers and responses from the congregation.

One that I am reminded of concerning this topic is the response to the invitation to come to receive communion. "Lord, I am not worthy to receive You, but speak but the Word and I will be healed". I love this humble and true response to being invited to receive Jesus in the taking of the bread and wine. It was one thing I still remember from those times I shared with my friends. I do not know if the Greek Orthodox service includes a prayer similar to this one. This response to the invitation of communion is one that could be adapted with an ending that fits ones situation better such as: "But speak but the Word and I shall be made clean (from confession of sins)" or "Speak but the Word and I shall receive You".

Thanks for participating in this conversation. I, too, believe that the OT was the time for "types" that represent or memorialize God's work, but the commanded ordinances of Jesus in the NT are the "anti-type" (the reality) and we should acknowledge by faith that we receive what the Scriptures say we receive from baptism and from the Lord's Table.

Hi Fuji,

I can certainly see that, and I also recognize something that isn't highlighted as much as it should be: humility. The act of washing feet was a task reserved for slaves, and Jesus performed this just after the disciples debated who would be the greatest in the kingdom. Through this action, Jesus teaches the principle of servant leadership, which I believe is quite rare today. While some churches may exemplify this, many preachers, teachers, and leaders seem more interested in being served and profiting from their roles. Paul says this several times saying he is a servant, "he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant".

God bless,

RLW

Thanks for the information GiGi. For me it is important to believe that the Bread and Wine are litterally the Body and Blood of Christ. There are no symbolic ceremonies in Christianity. There is no reason for that. Symbols and emblems were the norm in the Old Testament. Jesus didn't have to establish a symbolic ceremony to get us to remember His sacrifice, this is always in His children's minds and hearts. And it will be for ever. Even in eternity we will be seeing the scars in His Hands and Feet so we will always know the reason we will be there with Him. Not because we deserve something more than the rest, but because of the infinite love and grace of our Lord who became sin for us so that we become Justice to God through Him. Even water baptism is very significant. Because avoiding doing so will keep one out of salvation. God's command is very clear, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.", Mark 16:16. It couldn't be clearer than that. Every command of God is very important. Not obeing a command is a sin. And an unrepentant sin, when one is aware of it, will keep one away from His Kingdom, no matter if one is born again. It is also very important to have repented about any sin we know we have when partaking in His Body and Blood. In my church we have this ceremony every Sunday. And it is a very practical way to repend and not keep a sin for a longer time. GBU

COGIC SUNDAY SCHOOL BOOK 2/2/2025 Luke 10:25-34 KJV COGIC WORSHIP 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV I worship a God of Good report saving people to believe the Gospel obedeince to God Philippians 4:8 KJV .A God of love and mercy titled "good" in humanity, how to love others Luke 10:27 KJV. God of Unity Principle-Holy to all religions.Always performaning righteousness, holiness in actions "to do it" of God, to have faith, hope, love is unity" and also gives boldness.God to run the Christian race and receive the prize To have faith beyond measure. To walk by faith not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV. To do and say.

Lameko,

I am sorry that your wife is fighting cancer. I will remember to pray for her. Please keep us posted as to her progress so we can continue to intercede for her healing and recovery.

Fiona,

I am happy to keep your daughter and baby in prayer. May God cause the baby to turn soon and bring a safe deliver for Mom and baby.

Dear Jennie,

I am sorry that your surgery was not as successful as you had hoped. I definitely will keep praying for your recovery and that you will receive medical care that is proper, helpful, and brings resolve to the issue you are facing.

Loretta,

I will certainly pray for God to unify your family again soon.

Dear Gretchen,

I will be praying for you and your family this week. So sorry for the hardship everyone in your family is enduring at this time.

Agreed Chris,

We all must submit to the Holy Scriptures and the Spirit that inspired the authors to write as they did. Thanks for the quote from Tertullian. He lived in the 200's, I believe. and Irenaeus lived a bit later than Tertullian. Ignatius lived shortly after John the apostle died at the end of the first century. I do not know if the same gnostic influences were present during the lives of each of these believers. The reason I mentioned Ignatius is because of how close in time he lived to the apostolic time-frame. I think that his thoughts would closely align with that of the apostles and the early church because of the closeness in time of the two groups.

For me, when I consider the two ordinances Jesus initiated I think there is most likely much that these rites do for believers that we just do not know about. They are hidden in the counsel of the Godhead. I don't think I can correctly extract such from God that He has not revealed. But I do approach the ordinance in faith in God to do all that He wills to do in us when we obey the Scriptures in which He instructs us to partake of these rites. Therefore, I can be satisfied with not knowing the depths of these things because I know that it is God who wills and works in me according to His good pleasure and perfect will. I just trust Him and what He wishes to do in me and through me.f

Have a great weekend. We will be getting snow over the next day or two, the first of this winter. I love snow as long as it isn't a "snowmagedon" type of event that causes all sorts of problems. My birthday was Thursday and it has been common over the years for the Pacific Northwest to get snow on or around my birthday. I always hope for a bit of snow, at least enough for the kids to get a chance to play in it as I did when I was young and for us old folks to marvel at the quietness of snow falling and the beauty of everything being blanketed in fresh snowfall. I love how it glistens in the moonlight.

Thanks GiGi for your comments & adding further to this thread. I understand that this belief has different interpretations, but also those views were present from the earliest known writings. You referred to Zwingli & Luther and then to Ignatius of Antioch.

A major part of the writings by the early Church fathers on this matter stemmed from the prevailing Gnostic (Docetic) heresies rife within the Church. So when we read from Ignatius or Irenaeus for example, we must bear in mind that that was what was primarily in their minds: to refute the Docetic heresy that Jesus did not possess a real physical body of flesh & blood (even as the Apostle John warned against such in 2 John 1:7). So when Jesus spoke speaking of the bread & wine, "this is My Bodythis is My Blood of the New Testament", these fathers would show & confirm with the Church that from the very Mouth of Jesus, He affirmed His physical presence & not some phantom-like appearance as declared by the heretics.

So, it was not only to combat heresy alone, but also to affirm their beliefs in the symbolic nature of the elements, did those fathers also declare; as Tertullian did, "Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, 'This is My body', that is, the SYMBOL of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He (Jesus) likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed 'in His blood,' affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh" (Against Marcion, 4.40). Though I'm sure there were also others of the faith who espoused the actual substance change in the elements.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion, as we share how we understand God's Word, and of course, in all our readings, we must be open to the Spirit's enlightening Work in us. Blessings.

I am thinking that John chapter 13 verses 4 through to 10 , hark back to Leviticus chapter 8 verses 22 to the end of the chapter , where Moses consecrates the Levites for the services . In the washing of his desciples feet Jesus is ceremoniously cleansing them ready for the work that they will accomplish after he has gone on ahead .

Hello Giannis and Chris,

It seems from what I have read that the early church believed the account and words of Jesus at the Last Supper literally along with what Jesus said in John 6 concerning eating his body, the bread that came down from heaven, co paring His body to the manna in the wilderness that sustained the Israelites. This was the prevailing view in church history until early in the 1500's.

An interesting story is that of Luther debating Zwingli in his usual polemic and strong debating style on this topic. Zwingli was promoting the memorial view, which was a novel view at the time, and Luther was holding to the real presence of Jesus in with and under the bread and wine (the bread and wine did not change) but Jesus did come in an unexplainable way to be actually Present in the partaking of the bread and wine in the service. While debating with Zwingli, Luther carved early in the the words "This IS MY body" in the table before them (or similar words, but in Latin) to emphasize how literally and concretely he believed the Lord's Presence is in the communion rite. This gives us the strength of this viewpoint in the history of the church. From Zwingli, the teaching of communion being a commemoration entered the view of Christian churches and believers from that time on.

Can any of us truly know what Jesus meant by His words or by instituting this rite? We can try to interpret the best we are able to do and look all the way back to people such as Ignatius of Antioch, who was born in 110 A.D. to see that the supper was considered to be partaking of Jesus' body and blood. For me, I admit to God that I do not fully understand what all He does and intends in His children partaking of communion, yet I avow to Him that I believe that I will receive in communion the benefits He places in the taking of it for and to me. I do think we are told to do it as a memorial, as Jesus' words say, but He also identified the bread and wine as His body and blood.

I love, love,love this!!!!

Thanks brother Chris. But I don't think I agree. I think that also the writtings of the first christians show towards the litteral meaning of those elements. That is why the most ancient churches like the Eastern Orthodox church as well as the Roman Catholic Church consider them litterally. But to be honest I haven't made any research myself. Again thanks and may God bless you.

Ronald, 2/2

But in Jesus time those killings were done on the 14th, obviously due to the huge number of killings to be done by the priests in the Temple (and not in their houses as initially). Flavius Josephus in his Jewish wars, Book IV, chapter 9, par 6 writes, "So these High-priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour (3pm) till the eleventh (5pm)..."

There were also many other changes through time since the exit of the Israelites from Egypt. God commaned that they eat the meal in a rush, not sitting, but later they sat on tables and many other.

But said before John in his gospel disagrees and places the passover meal that Jesus had a day earlier, on the 13th, which actually must be the right date.

Anyway, all that just for information. So we disagree whether that supper was a pasover meal or not, but we agree on the date. We also disagree whether in the Lord's supper the bread and the wine were litterally or symbolic meant to be. But grape fruit instead of wine? No thanks, I will not take that. Those are churches who believe that christians must not drink alcohol at all so they use other liquids than wine, some use coca cola.

Thanks brother. GBU