Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 22

Gerald,

Here in this post you are spiritualizing what getting out of Egypt means where the actual text of Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy do not speak of it as such. According to your view of not spiritualizing what is a factual account or literal text then you are just as guilty of this as I am in how I viewed the New Jerusalem. Please, be consistent.

I know that how I interpreted the New Jerusalem does not fit into your dispensational literal approach to Revelation, but your approach does not apply to how others may approach this book. If you spiritualize the Exodus from Egypt, then certainly I can apply a similar Scriptural approach to text such as Revelation.

I am not trying to drum up a debate but when I find people speak about, promote, and insist on interpreting the Scripture literally, yet they employ other methods such as spiritualizing, seeing some text as figurative, allegorical, metaphorical, or symbolic as you have done with the Exodus as many dispensationalists indeed do, only to criticize a non-dispensationalist when they view some texts as literal, figurative, typological, metaphorical, etc. then I call that hypocrisy as well as a disingenuous way of approaching someone who thinks in a different way.

I am fine with dispensationalists seeking to interpret Scripture literally as well as all the other ways I listed because the Bible language is not all a literal account or statement. Often what is said in Scriptures describe spiritual realties and truth in language that seems to mean something literal, such as apostles being pillars in the foundations of the temple or the New Jerusalem in Revelation or when Jesus tells the disciples and believers they will sit on His throne as He sits on the Father's throne Rev. 3:21.

It would be absurd for these things to be literal, whether human pillars or all believers sitting upon Jesus on His throne and Jesus and all believers sitting on the Father's throne. These are to be viewed as spiritual realities.

Dear Gerald,

The figurative language of this chapter and the apocalyptic nature of the book of Revelation lends toward taking this topic in a figurative sense as representing something very real, substantive, yet spiritual, the body of Christ as the tabernacle in which God dwells forever with the redeemed is quite applicable to this New Jerusalem.

Therefore, although you seem to have a negative view of such things as typology, metaphors, figures, and such, I think it makes the most sense that the New Jerusalem is not an physical city, but demonstrates the state of our eternal union with God.

If you can tell me how apostles can actually be physical pillars and foundations and stones of this city, and how Jesus can actually be a cornerstone, or a body made up of millions of physical individuals then that is another matter, but as it seems to me that such identification is actually figuratively written to reveal realities we just do not yet truly know at this time because we are of the earth now and the New Jerusalem is a heavenly and spiritual reality just as real a physical city.

The fact is that the 40 years wandering has been taken as the Christian norm .

With Jordan being death and heaven ' the promised land' .

There are no giants in heaven or cities to conquer .

It's a real city . Do we not " seek a city that has foundations who's builder is God"?

Let us not spiritualiseceverything or turn into metaphors that are not .

It is a heavenly or spiritual city coming down to an earthly one.

God is Spirit yet has more substance than any chair yiu maybe sitting on .

The visions of Ezekiel and Daniel were not ethereal somethings .

They saw a reality that was very difficult to put into words and many things were " like unto" others were clear and specific .

Our minds need to be sanctified and renewed by the Word of God and we should tread softly not jumping to conclusions .

As we get nearer to the time appointed we will if prayerful get the understanding .

Step by step .

The getting out of Egypt was from slavery to bondage . From being no people to Gods people .it is being ' born again" by the blood of a lamb ,the power of God and the Word of God .

From the dominion of Pharaoh ( Satan) and from the bondage of the world ( Egypt) .

I say again the promised land so often depicted as Heaven and which you repeat is not heaven. For there are no giants in heaven or cities to conquer . The Bible is consistent with itself .

And Jordan is not death but many a hymn has them both .

In truth Jordan does mean descent and is a form of death but it is the death of baptism I being " buried WITH Christ " ..

The wilderness journey from Egypt to Jordon and the borders of Canaan called the promised land took a bit over two years . Not 40. The wilderness journey was boot camp where a civilian is changed into a soldier .Where he learns to obey orders or as the scriptures put it " to prove them " that they learn that " man does not live by bread alone but by everybWord that proceeds from the mouth of God" .

Instead they kept proving God forever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Out of over 2000,000 people who came out of Egypt only TWO actually entered . SomGod was justified in expecting them all to be ready the first time .

By your reasoning if the promised land was heaven then that is quite appalling .

I say again . The church has made the wandering in the wilderness for 40: years as the Christian norm .

They had miracles every day twice on Saturday . The fire and cloudy pillar and much else besides .God did not leave them but they were out of the centre of Gods will. Paul is not speaking about heaven nor is God when " they entered not in because of unbelief ".

The unbelief today we must face and repent of .

We have for instance made the 10 virgins a message and bout the saved and the unsaved . When it's a message fir the church . Has changed the message " behold I stand oat the door and knock " likewise .

Chris, in an added note,

It too, about 45 days to travel from Egypt to Mt. Sinai as they travelled day and night in order to increase their distance from the Egyptians before they rested at the Red Sea, then crossing it when the Egyptians were close to overtaking them. then they went straight to the plains before Mt. Sinai.

If you add the 6 weeks or so to get to Mt. Sinai and the 11 days travel from Mt. Sinai to Kadesh-Barnea by way of Mt. Seir they could have made the trip in 8 weeks, but they camped at Mt. Sinai for a year. During that time we must remember that the people demanded an idol be made to represent YHWH, hence the golden calf. This probably led to the travel between Sinai and kdaesh-barnea where the 12 spies were sent out longer as punishment.

The Roman vulgate used corrupt texts full of additions inconsistencies etc and ignore the uncorrupted text .

There are good books anyone can find in a goid Bible book shop that proves the case if anyone wants the truth of the matter .

I reject the Vulgate as much as I reject every other 'version' of the Bible that are so popular but misleading .

And in the end will produce fruit after its own kind also .

Hello Chris

If the Israelites had travelled from Egypt along the Mediterranean coast it was about 125 miles, but that road would take them through Philistia and the Philistines were fierce enemies, even though the route would take a few weeks time. If they took the more travelled trade route up through Mt. Seir, it would take perhaps a few months. From Mt. Sinai to Kadesh Barnea going the route by Mt. Seir. Deut 1:2 says it is about an 11 day journey.

But taking into account that there were perhaps 600K to 1 Million in the traveling group and many goods to carry and animals to accompany them on their journey it would probably take much longer, perhaps as little as 3 months or up to 2 years. But we must remember that they camped for extended periods of time where there was water and grazing land for their flocks and of course with Moses waiting on directions from God and the guidance of the pillar of fire and cloud. When the pillar stayed in one place, the Israelites did, and when the pillar moved on, they followed.

They were camped at Mt. Sinai for one year ( Ex. 19:1; Nu. 10:11) During that time they received the Law from God with all of its ordinances and built the tabernacle along with the ark of the covenant. There was specific order and requirements about who and how all the pieces of the tabernacle were to be carried on their journey. It needed to be set up whenever they comped alogn their journey and also taken down when they departed a camp. So, 2+ years overall before they came to Kadesh barnea where the 12 spies were sent out is probably a likely timeframe for that timeline for their travels from Egypt to Canaan.

Because of their unbelief due to the report of the 23 spies, God added one year for every day the spies were out surveying the land, which was 40 days. Thus they travelled 40 more years in addition to the time they already had spent travelling from Egypt, camping at Sinai and oasis' along the way.

There are many good books on which Bible to read and why . Anyone seriously interested in why shouid read them and any goid Bible book shop will have them. From quite basic to the very academic .

I disagree with you completely about ANY extra books and given the p,et Nora of ' versions' of the Bible today that are plainly wrong despite their boasts their " better understanding" rhey should all be thrown away . As for those 'traditionally ' added to the cannon of scripture I hold them false as well despite what you have said and are mistaken in their validity .

The KJV authorised I've never found wanting unreliable or untruthful . After 40 years of study and thought it is still inexhaustible .

I neither need to go elsewhere or recommend anyone else to do so ,it's a path that will lead to trouble and mischief. I'm not clever enough to play cards with the devil or be in such foolish debates .

We are living in the end times and while many claim holy inspiration none show it . So I decline to go down " by pass meadow '.

People have enough trouble understanding the cannon of scripture you wouod seem to want to add to their troubles .

I will not .

GB

What are the 7 feasts and their relevance today?

Amen Azzan77!

Great verse that we should keep in memory!

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

Isaiah 55:7

Blessings.

Gerald

In my comment I wrote "The Masoretic text is a least a thousand years older than the Septuagint" but it is the opposite. "The Septuagint is 1000 years older than the Masoretic"

Gerald, pt2 about the Septuagint.

The Septuagint also contain what we call the "Apocrypha". But that was done only because the Jews were reading them at that time. Otherwise why would they include those? Later on when the Jews canonized the OT they left them out. In Jesus' time Jews were reading them. Something similar happened to christians. Before the NT was canonized many churches were using books that were left out later on. The "Shepherd of Hermas" was such a book. Another was the "Teaching of the 12 apostles" and many others that were very popular among the christians of the first 3 centuaries AD. But were left out later on.

In my church we use the Masoretic but sometimes I personally consult the Septuagint, although not so often.

And there are churches like the Eastern Ortodox church who have standardized the Septuagint as the right text.

Anyway I don't think it makes that much difference which OT we use.

GBU

Gerald, pt 1

About the Septuagint. It is logical that the evangelists quoted from the Septuagint since there was no other translation available at that time. But by doing so they were actually recomended it. Because one never uses something which they consider as corrupt. And if they do so, still they do not say it to others, because they know that others will do the same.

The Septuagint raised a substantial objection starting from the early age of the church. Some said that in many cases it was an interpretation rather than a translation or it was a paraphrase. Maybe yes, but maybe no.

The Masoretic text is a least a thousand years older than the Septuagint. And often christians accused the Jews that they changed the text to wipe out anything that reveals Christ. I have mentioned that "virgin" or the verse that Paul uses in Hebrews (10:5) to show them a verse for Christ. There is a world difference between the Septuagint "but a body hast thou prepared me" and the Masoretic "mine ears hast thou opened". There is also a world difference between the "and upon the holy place there shall be the abomination of desolation," which Jesus said and the "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.". Don't you agree on that? So Jesus had some other text in mind than what we know today as the Masoretic? Or is it true that the Jews changed the text to fit their point of view.

About the later verse I quoted Jerom's translation in Vulgate Latin which was done during the 3rd century AD. Jerom did his own translationdirectly from the Hebrew scriptures. But his translation is almost identical to the Septuagint and completely different from the Masoretic. So where is the truth?

see pt 2

Gerald, pt2

Let's talk about works. What is a work? Why do I do a work? Isn't it because I do something because someone askes me for to do? If Noah didn't obey God and constructed that ship would he and his family be saved? No. So doing what God commands leads to salvation. Works reveal faith. They also reveal obedience. If there is no work, then disobedience is evident. So you see the connection between works and faith. Do they save? In a sense yes they do. Think of Abraham, think of Noah, think of Abel, think of Joshua. Suppose Joshua wasn't willing to enter the promise land or if he didn't trust God enough and never entered the promise land. He would had lost his destination. Left out. Suppose Abel didn't sacrifice a lamb and instead he offered a plant. Would he be considered as righteous? No. So don't you see that His work saved him?

Anyway this thing about works and faith causes debate since ancient times.

Luther got it wrong here. Because he couldn't find the connection between works and faith, he rejected Jame's epistle as fake (I have read somewhere). You know christianity wasn't born during Luther's time. It existed for 1500 years before him. Now rejecting all that christian history as useless is out of any logical thinking. Yes many wrong thinks gradually entered the church, but there is a lot of truth and wisdom in the writtings of the so called Fathers and christian theologians living before Luther.

Next we will talk about the Septuagint.

GBU

Hello Gerald, pt 1

Yes Jesus' sacrifice gets you out of Egypt (figuratively) and places one in the begining of the path which leads to the promise land. This is the narrow path which leads to Heaven for us the christians. On the way there one must stay on this path otherwise they will end somewhere else but not in Heaven. Different roads lead to diffent destinations. There is only one road that leads to Heaven. This road/path is along Jesus' footprints whose steps are on God's commandements. So obeying God's commandements is actually walking on the right path. There is no way that one is saved when disobeying God's commandements.

Think about it in another way. If one refuses to do God's will (even if they are saved) then they have a sin in their lives, because disobeying God is sin. If one never repents about it, then I am sorry they can not be saved. Remember that parable that Jesus said about entering the marriage meal and found one who was not dressed appropriately for the marriage. What are those clothes? They are the white clothes we are dressed. White means pure, sinless. No man with sin/sins will ever enter the marriage.

There is a world difference (as you say) between not been able to do what is aked from me by God so I cry to God for help and between being negligible or unwilling to do what is commanded. In that latter case God is ot any more on our side. His grace has gone. But still God is our father and works all the time in our heart to bring us back to the right path. But the decision to do what is asked by God and not do it, is on me, not on God. God will try to save me even at the last minute of my life but who can be so silly to risk such a thing. We are talking about the eternal life, not about some earthly things.

So obeying God is very essential for our salvation.

...see pt2

Annotated Gen.9.20-27 "Noah in his tent"

The Spirit is here specific as the world of Noah. The Lord God setting a bow upon the cloud is not merely to lookat but to make man remember where he is place. This world framed by the word of God is but one. Noah having the mind of Christ revers the word of Jesus, "I am the true Vine" and becomes an husbandman. ( Jn 15.1) What is the relation of Shem, Hamand Japheth to Noah? Are they not you and me to God the Father? The word 'husbandman' is placed by the Spirit and is not Bible hermenetics, but the only aim of the Holy Spirit to instruct manin righteousness.

So what was Ham doing? He is setting his own will- worship there instead of looking away in reverence to his holiness. False teachers have been offering polluted offerings in the name of Bh. Are 12 Apostles part of the body of Christ asks one son of perdition? 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel must be set on the earth, another one, equally a son of Belial reasons. Is God and his word are to be trivialised by them? Malachi reminds us of them,"A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?"( Mal. 1.6)

Doctrine of Balaam and ' the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate," is on the same scale of prosperity theology and Christian nationalism of our times.(Rev.2.6,14) Gbosticism, Arianism have survived to which we may call as coming from the depths of Satan so their tower of Babel to reach unto the heavens shall end in fiasco. Our true worship must be as living in tents while God is in his tent. Do we enter therein with the will worship or in reverence, having the mind of Christ?

Shem showed the correct spirit. So Noah blesses him.

Curse on Canaan was from foreknowledge, in him was the mercantile spirit, which we find in our times.

Annotated Gen.9. 20 "Husbandman"

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"

In the case of the garden east of Eden it was God who planted it. "And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."(2.8)

Breath of life made Adam a living soul so he knew coming out of his deep sleep where the woman came from. "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh then as now works. There is no woman in Noah's case but he does exactly as his Son would have. He set 'I am the true Vine into practice. What are his three sons, Shen, Ham and Japheth three branches.

This world is distinct from the world of Adam as Adam is as distinct from last Adam. God sets a token . " And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." I will look upon it refers to the angel, another mighty angel mentioned in Rev.10.1. Compare the description of the Word which was with God. (He had the little boo, for his credentials. "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire." In the inaugural vision of St John the risen Christ "And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters "(Rev.1.15) The Composit picture of last Adam is unmistakable. You identify the Ancient of days in v.14. In short when we put on the mind of Christ faith is pure speech and there is only one language within which holiness of God is the driver, as Japheth did, In v.23 we shall come to it. As Noah is in his tent is god in his throne. Noah became a husbandman in obedience to the true Vine.

Without acknowledging both worlds of the Spirit and our world framed by the word as one what we do is will-worship.

If you remember that 40 years wandering in the wilderness came after they reached the shore of Jordan and God had said to them " Go in and pisses the land for I have given it to you" Then then sent in 12 spies . They all saw the same things . But 10 completely forgot wat God had already done for them in Egypt ,who it was who was with them and what God had promised for the future and said we can't do this there are giants who will make our chikdren bread for them etc. The two faithful spurs saw the same things in the true light of the past oresent and future with God and said we can take it . Democracy won out . and they failed to enter in because of unbelief . Unbelief is not just not believing God it is believing another message .

And God wouid not allow them to enter into the promised land and set thrm wandering in the wilderness for 40 years till that generation had died and those children became " more than conquerors" and entered .

The time frame of leaving Egypt to the promised land can be found piecemeal in Numbers and Deuteronomy .

They were 3 months at mount Sinai .. It gives the time after the Red Sea to Sinai and onwards. . Add them all together and it comes to about 2 1/2 years .

But is it not interesting how the 40 years is so fixed in the mind? And even the great hymns which I live has heaven as the promised land and Jordan death . Not so .

Thus my perception that the church has made the 40: years the norm!

Yet Paul has warned us " not to be like them " which again supports my perception that the gospel has been reduced to simply being BORN again. Getting out of Egypt . He also warned not to be deceived like Eve . She too believed another message and did not believe God.

But I am confident that there will arise a body of people " who will come out of the wilderness terrible as an army with banners leaning upon her beloved " At the moment we seem to lean more upon our own understanding upon our " better understanding" some boast in other version

Just a side matter: a point you mentioned here Gerald (in fact at least a couple of times that I can remember), you stated that the children of Israel took a little over two years to go from Egypt to Canaan. I've always been intrigued as to where you got that figure from. In my readings, I always come across forty years as the specified time. Indeed, the time would have been much shorter, but for their disobedience and unbelief. There are too many references to the forty years, but I share a few here: Deuteronomy 8:2; Deuteronomy 29:5; Joshua 5:6; Amos 2:10; Acts 7:36; and others. I would be interested in your research into this 'anomaly'.

Annotated Gen.9.16-17 "The everlasting Covenant"

" And the bow shall be in the cloud;"

This is repeated. In v.13 we read,"I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." The Spirit in many other places repeat where the emphasis on the Father Son relationship. He remembers for instance is referring to the covenant and his Son is the heir of all things. So the world framed by the word of God begins with the world of Noah as against naations rising subsequently. Those who set about to build the tower of Babel for instance. We shall come to that.

"And I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." God remembers so Noah does in obedience to the will of god. Faith is what makes Noah as a double for his Son. This is how we need look at the Covenant which is everlasting. So first four days in the Covenant refer to the Will as expresssed; the three refers to the man called to be a saint shall do. He rests in the God's rest or his obedience is allied to the mind of Christ. We put on the mind of God by faith. " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."(Phil.2.5)

v.17 "And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Token is not the original.This bow which He sets is like specimen, framed so iris scan works at the airports. It is uniques as the voice of the Lord so the sign provided is as good as God is present. It is thus the cloud specified in this case. St John saw this rainbow" and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald."(Rev.4.3) and upon 'another angel as significant as another seed, "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:" The Word as a sign.

Thank you brother for those added thoughts and Scriptures. Amen. GBU.

You could not be further from the truth as to my attitude towards the church of which I am a part .The denominations canecabout simply because the 'established' church of the time starting with Luther refused to continue in the orogresive purposes of God and God had to find someone who would " suffer without the camp" to progress the building of HIS church .

It has always been thus .

Out of Noah's generation God chose Noah . Out of Noah's generation God chose Abraham .

Out of His generation came Jesus Christ .

When God told Noah to go out into all the world etc they went as far as a place they thought they could stop and build a tower and make a name for themsekves " when Peter got the revelation that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God . The Lord confirmed it was of heaven . But Peter thought he had all the light and when the Lord began to give more light ascto His coming rejection and suffering!Peter could not resolve what he knew with what Jesus said and rejected it and tried to dissuade the Lord from itv. And git a sever rebuke fir doing so.

I thank Almighty God fir Luther and fir all his labours I've heard messages he preached on that showed how he grew in understanding beyond " the just shall live by faith " and have been even now greatly blessed by the message of John 17.

But at some point they went so cars nd no further and each succeeding denomination led by men of God have progressed the church . There won't be any more denominations and there are not any in heaven .

As for thinking because I am not in one that gives me some sort of righteousness . It doesn't . I was BORN again in sn evangelical church in NW London .but that is not my righteousness either though I am very thankful beyond words for that congregation for reasons I can't go into here .

It is not I who is saying " Behold I stand at the doir and knock.."

But it is for me to understand not only how that can be but also believe Him and "consider my ways ".

Giannis

To conclude this exchange, though you said that much is being debated, I don't see these exchanges that way. To me, debating carries with the word a sense of one against another. I see all these exchanges as discussion where at times we commend and agree with what others post on a topic and at times we voice our disagreement explaining why we disagree. I see a big difference between debate and discussion. Both can be rigorous an involve deeply held convictions, but one (discussion) is better suited for a forum like this because we all should approach one another in love, compassion, and a desire to bring clarity to the teachings of Scripture so we can build one another up with increasing understanding of God's revelation to us and of one another.

I am glad you won't do surgery on your knee since you had good results from your work on rehabilitating your other knee when you tore that miniscus. May you heal quickly and learn effective ways to accomplish the healing and have a firm resolve to keep at what works until your knee is strong and healthy once again.

Always good to talk with you.

Giannis,

Part 2

Eden can be a physical type to the true antitype of the New Earth. When Adam and Eve were placed into the Garden which was a physical type to the true antitype of the New Jerusalem) in Eden God had created for them, He walked among them, conversing with them and in intimate fellowship with them. When they sinned, this relationship was lost to them and they could no longer live in the Garden. They did not had it in them to fix this situation. God promised them a Messiah to redeem them and their sinful posterity from the corruption that became real in each of us as a result of the work of Satan in their midst. Jesus was that promised Seed pf Gen. 3:17 at on the cross of His death He completely overturned the work of Satan, triumphing over Satan unequivocally and this victory He bestows upon those He saves.

The New Earth (restored Eden) and New Jerusalem (the perfected Garden where the evil one no longer has access to as he did in Genesis) is the consummation of history, the "teleos" ) (desired end of God's creation, full completion of all of His eternal purposes, and the "better heavenly country" than Eden (or even eretz Ysrael) that is superior to all that the first creation involved before sin came to be. It is the restoration of ALL things promised in Acts 3:21 which is simply the fulfillment of Eph. 1:9-10 where God brings ALL THINGS in heaven and earth together in Christ. This is the reality of the New Jerusalem-the union of all believers with Jesus in Him and He in us. Rev. 21:1-5 refers to this as well.

It is God marrying heaven and earth both physically and spiritually where He brings His very real and superior, heavenly, spiritual kingdom to earth forever where only righteousness dwell. Physical and Spiritual aspects of His entire creation are merged where His will is done on earth as it is in heaven because they are both interpenetrated with each other.

This is what Jesus told us to pray for when He taught the disciples to pray.

" Listen to what the Spirit says to the churches"

BeholdI I stand at the door and knock if sny man has ears to hear to them.." is the promise given .

Whioe on the face of it all yiur said was true , it is up to yiu to reconcile what you have said the scriptures say with what thry actually say .

For it is a bit if a quandary how as Christ is in every believer by the Holy Spirit how then is He OUTSIDE knocking on the door?

May I suggest the answer lues in the fact that the gospel has been reduced to being but BORN again .

That the 40 years in the wilderness has been taught and preached as the Christian norm .

When in reality it only took them a little over TWO years to go from Egypt to the promised land but they failed to enter in " because of unbelief ." Heaven is NOT the promised land and Jordan is not death .

The wilderness was meant to be 'boot camp" where sec slaves were to become soldiers .

We have made Christendom almost a holiday camp though not for all .

We have as it were landed on the shores of America for the firs5 time . The beach and weather are perfect the climate wonderful and the teee line full of everything we need and have encamped there . Not realising that behind that tree line is a whole continent waiting to be explored .

The knocking on the door is a call to all to repent but also to " open the door" to Him who is so much more than we have made Him . We are more a kin to the foolish virgins than we are to the wise . For the only difference was that the wise kept their "vessels full " the foolish were misled to believe that to be BORN was enough .

The righteousness of God is not by " obeying His commandments" but by faith in Gods good work of Calvary . It has always been thus . Abel offered a Lamb by faith in the promise of God .

Caine did not seeking to establish his own; righteousness by the " sweat of his brow" .

In so doing he denied Gods righteousness and sought his own glory .

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence if things as yet unseen".

All men have this faith according to what it IS . " Fir God has given to every man a measure of faith to profit withall".

While all men have faith not all have their faith in God . But theur faith still works by what faith IS .

But it is short lived in that " the things that are seen are temporary but the things that are not seen are eternal "

The laws of physics are not seen but people understanding them act accordingly .

But that is the natural mirroring the spiritual .

Giannis,

Your response makes a lot of sense to me.

My one point, and I may be way off on this, but when we read about the heavenly Jerusalem descending to earth, it is symbolic, not a literal building or physical city. It represents something heavenly coming to earth.

In my understanding, it represents the antitype of the OT temple, which was a type of what was heavenly as it says in Ex. that the earthly temple is made after the pattern in heaven shown to Moses ( Exodus 25-27).

This heavenly antitype, the true reality, is what descends to the New Earth from the New Heaven. It is God's heavenly throne (power, authority, dominion) come to earth in the heavenly New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is the Body of Christ in which God dwells eternally. There is no need for a physical temple in the New Jerusalem because the Lord Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus) are the temple whom forever indwells the Church, the Body of Christ, which the New Jerusalem description symbolizes, representing and intimate (as in a bride and bridegroom who become one in marriage), unmediated, direct and eternal relationship of believers with God. Rev. 21:21-22 speaks of this symbolism, with the glory of the God being the eternal light of the New Jerusalem and the Lamb (Jesus) is the lamp, so no sun is needed and there is no night in this realm because it is the kingdom of light without darkness, that is pure, holy, and sinless.

In Rev. 3 the term temple is used as a metaphor the the body of Christ with believers being called pillars and other parts of the temple as if they are physically built into a physical temple, just as Paul says that believers are living stones being built into a temple of God with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, the stone that the builders (Ethnic Israel who built the physical 1st and 2nd temple which was expanded, embellished, and made magnificent by Herod) rejected. The Jews rejected Jesus the foundational element Scripture speaks of throughout. See pt. 2

" The word of God is the seed "

When we hold the Holy Bible in our hands ( not a version) we hold the eternal Word between our fingers . How is that possible?

The Word is a seed .

When John spoke about the words and deeds of the Lord he said if everything that He said and did was written down the whole world would not be able to contain the books ."

Therefore not everything that Jesus said and did is contained in the gospel of John but he put enough he wrote that " we might know that He was the Christ "

The whole Bible though historically accurate does not contain a comp,eye history nor does it record everything . But it does contain everything that is needed to produce faith and come to know in some measure the God of the Bibke and to know His will and His way .

For a seed is not the tree but it has everything to reproduce the fruit . For a seed has this property it has rverything that is needed and nothing that is not needed to reproduce the fruit.

If yiu add to it or subtract from it you change it . Not that the Word of God can be changed but yiu will be changed for the worse .

You can get a mule by mixing a horse with a donkey but a mule has no life in it to reproduce itself . If then you want another mule you need another horse and donkey . If yiu mix truth with error you will get something but it has no life in it.

If you want people to be saved Salvation needs to be preached .

Deliverance and healing thst must be preached .

Holyness unto God that too must be preached . For the Bride of Christ to "get herself ready " Yiur must preach the nature character and disposition of the Bride .

Some will fall by the wayside . The well trodden path of our own thoughts.

Stone ground etc .

It does not just apply to our salvation .

In fact the gospel of God has been reduced to being only BORN again .

But that is but the ' S' of our Salvation.It is getting out of Egypt only .

Even as the birth of a child is but the beginning. Wonderful though that is

Amen Brother Chris!!

There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.

They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.

The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.

(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)

However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.

These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.

References-

Romans 11:25-26.

Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.

Isaiah 40:9

Joel 2:3-32.

Isaiah 11:11-12.

The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.

..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.

In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.

This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!

Blessings Brother!