Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 23

Thanks Gerald

Timothy 4:10, "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;..."

Jeremiah 179, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Proverbs 4:23, "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

2 Cor 13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Mark 14:38, "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation ..."

GBU

GiGi, pt 4

The question is. Why didn't God take the souls of the righteous of the OT in Heaven instead of sending them temporarily in Hades? The answer is that because the Blood of Jesus had not been shed yet. And without His blood nobody goes to Heaven. Why not?

Hebrews 9:22, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Any blood? Hebr 10:4, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

Only Christ's Blood cleans people's sins. Rom 3:25, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

So we the believers now,"19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" Hebr 10:19-20.

But that was not the case with the OT Jews. Yes they were righteous in the sense that they obeyed God's commandements at those ages, yes they walked with God, BUT without Jesus' Blood they were in no way without sin. So they didn't have the right to enter the Holy of the Holies which means in the very presence of God. So God left them temporarily in a nice plce to be comforted until Jesus' Blood was shed. And onwards His resurrection He cariried their souls in Heaven under the altar together with all other souls of the righteous waiting for the resurrection of the dead. The latter is a common belief of many christian churches.

A long respont, isn't it? Have a blessed week.

GiGi, pt 3

And what is it meant by Heavenly Jerusalem? Rev 21:1-2, "1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

The new Jerusalem is the church, the bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Are the saints of the OT included in the Bride? Yes we both are fellow citizens.

Hebr 11:16, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a CITY." This verse refers to the heros of faith before Christ.

2. Where were the souls of the OT saints were going to in the OT era? In the story of the rich man and Lazarus both the wicked and the righteous were going down to earth in a place called by the evangelists as "Hades" (in KJB is written as Hell). This term was also taken from the Septuagint who translated the Hebrew word "sheol" as "Hades", in this way showing that what was meant by Jews of that time with the word Sheol was not the grave but a place down the earth where the souls of the dead were going to.

In that place there were two compartments, one for the wicked who were tortured and one for the righteous who were comforted.

When Jesus was crucified He said to that criminal crucified next to Him who repented that he would be in Paradise with Him soon. Paul in his epistles wishes to go with Christ in heaven after dying. In Rev we see the souls of the slaughtered believers under the altar of the Temple in Heaven. Under the altar means under Jesus' sacrifice . So when Jesus was resurrected from the dead He took all the souls of the saints of the OT, and before that age such as Noah and others, into Heaven.

... see pt 4

GiGi, pt2

Probably because they wanted to discriminate themselves from the Jews. Because in that early era the danger to Christianity was not due to heresies but due to Jewish traditions and oracles that some wanted to adopt into the new faith. We see in the Acts that the Jewish believers could not cut ties with the Law, so that even when Paul went to Jerusalem, James adviced him to pretend that he didn't teach the Jews abroad against the Law (which Paul was actually doing it).

To be honest I would like to know how Jesus called the gathering. Jesus was not speaking in grk but in Aramaic, So He used a specific Jewish or Aramaic word, Maybe the one used in the OT for Israel. We don't know. But the evangelists who wrote the gospels translated it in grk as church. With the word Church it is definately meant the one body of Hebrews and gentiless who believe in Christ. But not the Jews before Him in the OT. The church was formed on Pentecost so it includes people from that time till the end.

Ephesians 2:16, "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

It says one body. It is the Body of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19-22,

"19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit"

It says we have become fellow citizens. Of which state? Hebr 12:22, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

...see pt3

Hello GiGi, pt 1

A lot of debate going on lately. So let me say my beliefs one by one.

Firstly my knee is getting better so I think an operation will not be needed. The doctor said that we see how it goes in the future and then we decide what to do. Nevertheless I wouldn't like to go for an operation. Ten years ago I had a similar injury in my left knee. The doctor said that it would be better to go for an operation. But a friend and brother in Christ, an ex-athlete, insisted that I wouldn't do it. Instead He said it would be a lot better to do weight lifting for my legs. I followed his advice and so after a time I was able to jump, run everything. Sometimes now and then I feel it stiff but nothing serious. I hope your problems with your shoulders go better. Let us not forget that we have a God who heals.

1. Now before talking about the church let me say a bit of information from ancient history.

Today when we say "church" we usually mean the building. This is true for the English speaking people but for modern grks too. But in ancient times church (grk ecclesia), the term meant just a congregation, nomatter if it were a religious or a political or an athletic event. The most famous "church" in anc grc was the "Ecclesia of Demus" (freely translated as "Public Congregation") in the ancient city/state of Athens. It was the gathering of all Athenian citizens at a certain place on certain dates to discuss and decide about their city's affairs. So church was any gathering actually.

When the Septuagint (who were Hebrew teachers and rabbis speaking both Hebrew and grk) translated the OT, translated the Hebrew word for congregation as "church" sometimes but some other times as "synagogue", which also means congregation in grk. The Septuagint of course did not have in mind the christian church. They meant just a gathering of Hebrews.

When the early gentile church was formed, the christians prefferd the term church than synagogue to call their congregation.

...see pt2

Exodus 33:19

"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Deuteronomy 7:9

"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

Isaiah 55:7

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

Blessings

Greeting's

Romans 2:13

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Blessings

Annotated Gen.9.12-15 "Token"

v.12"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:"

God set the sign of blood in terms of the life of man. It was the Covenant between God and man created in the image of God. Bow God is specific towards His creation. He sets the mercy in terms of the creature. The natural lights served a purpose. "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:/And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth" (1.14-14) This is on the day Three.

"for signs, and for seasons and for days, and years." There were beasts accoustomed to diurnal and noctural foraging. The sun for the former helped man in his daily labour while the beasts of prey hunted by night. "The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God./ The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens./ Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening."(Ps.104.22-24)

v.17 "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." Between me and the earth is solemnised now so animal sacrifcies wherever prescribed for man in order to approach God involved their death. For example God demands Abraham a sacrifice. and three years old. "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon./ And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. "(15.9-19) Their sacrifice set a frame of reference to the slain Lamb. The same Covenant, and the natural world by this Cocenant is framed by the word of God.. Noah is the Mediator even as the Son is..

Gerald,

God always leaves a witness, a remnant, a true testimony of Himself ( Acts 14:17)

Dear Gerald,

The Church Jesus built upon the truth that "He was the the Christ, the Son of the Living God" said by Peter by the Spirit of God will never die. It is a "forever" entity being the body of our Lord of which He is the head. It will endure to and through the second coming of Jesus a the end of this age and continue after for all eternity. We are saved unto an eternal existence with the Lord and thus His Church body will forever endure. The Holy Spirit indwells all believers and never departs, so in this way the Spirit will always be in the Church Jesus is building even to this day and will forever inhabit the people Jesus has saved and brought to faith, ingrafting all into the Church.

Dear Gerald,

Your disdain for the Church of Jesus through the ages is out of line with the Spirit of Truth.

There have been tons of godly men over the centuries within the Church that have been given insight into the depths of God's word written in Scriptures.

It is interesting that people today think that such knowing is particular to those of today and especially those who are outside of a denomination, as you seem to say.

But the truth is, God has given gifts to the Church, both those within denominations and without: teachers, pastors, evangelists, etc. This has continued through the centuries, but the apostles were only those who were actually first-hand eye-witnesses to Jesus in His earthly life. The writers of the Scriptures were within the Church Jesus built from the time of the start of His earthly ministry until now. I do not defend any specific denomination, nor condemn to concept.

Every Christian assembly has the responsibility to correctly handle the word of God and preach it forth to the hearers of their congregations. But since the Holy Spirit was given the work of teaching God's truth within the Church through the ages, we should be charitable towards other believers and be able to have a mind-set to learn from others God has gifted by the Spirit of grace.

Gerald,

The Apostles did quote from the Septuagint being written in the Greek that was the common language at the time and also a more precise language that Hebrew or our English. These godly men inspired by the Holy Spirit to use the Septuagint (even though Paul knew Hebrew. There is no way or your to know if the Septuagint, written around the 3rd century B.C. was corrupted, but the Holy Spirit inspired apostles to use it, so He must have approved it for use by the Scripture writes.

Gerald,

Correct. Those saints of the OT believed God that the Messiah would be sent from God.

S.Spencer,

Thanks for the reply and the Scripture verses. Appreciated.

Hello Gerald,

I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.

Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.

This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.

Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.

In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.

There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.

God bless,

RLW

Amen Gigi.

I the Greek the word "ecclesia" which means congregation/assembly of the called out ones. The Septuagint uses the word ecclesia.

There's a different word in the Hebrew used in the wilderness equivalent to ecclesia which means "assembly" and is derived from the root word to "gather

The word "QAHAL" means "assembly" or "congregation" and was used to refer to the community of Israel as a whole.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is future! Jesus is the cornerstone, That's leveling point where the foundation depends on for accuracy!

This is the most important part of a building.

If its off the whole construction project is out of whack!

When the cornerstone is set then comes the foundation. (Apostles)

Afterwards comes the building!

This is the ecclesia! (Jews and Gentiles alike)

The wall of partition has been broken down. Ephesians 2:14.

This group of believers is under a "NEW COVENANT" that is different from the gathering in the wilderness!

When Jesus made this statement the foundation haven't been laid yet.

The cornerstone was set at Jesus crucifixion, afterwards the Holyspirit indwelling beginning with the Apostles. (Foundation)

Afterwords the Church Jesus mentioned in Matthew 16:18.

Note:

The rock is built on the statement Peter made in Matthew 16:16

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"

Christ deity is pinnacle in Christianity.

Blessings.

Greeting's

Romans 3:31

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Blessings

Amen Gerald! Well stated!

"They looked forward to Calvary we look back to it but both look forward to the coming of the Lord . Seeking a city that has foundations and built by God"

God bless!

There is a reason why the Septuagint is not accepted. It's because it is based on such corrupted texts it is completely unreliable and contradictory to those texts that are.

And while you say the apostles quoted from it ,that does not mean at all they were speaking about the same tbing.

And let us face it . We have what we have for centuries and still have not exhausted it but have rather sought to have other 'versions' for it is said because " of our better understanding" but prove they have little or none and it is very doubtful if they know God at all .

The Bible is in many ways like a jigsaw puzzle . The " milk" of the Word being the sides and corners . For no matter how big the puzzle they are the easiest to find first .

Once the framework is up with its four corners . We know that everything is inside it and there is nothing outside it . I wonder if that is meant by "found wanting"? That is outside Chrsist .

But that is another matter .

The hardest parts are the sky ( heavenly) for it is so contrary to our old nature .I think .

So most if not everyone starts with the earthly things .

Me I start with lines whatever sort they are,

We get clumps of pieces which we put here and there but often find we have put them in the wrong place and need to adjust . But if we continue clumps join to clumps and perhaps long before the puzzle is finished we 'see' the picture or understand in some measure . It then can get easier and we make less mistakes .

We don't force pieces into where wet hunk they should go ,but learn to be patient .

I've been studying and thinking about the Scriptures for over 40 years ,I don't need to go anywhere else or find another version to make it easier . If I go to university it does not conform to me but seeks to bring me up to them.

They don't bring the language down to my level but seek to bring mine up to it.

And if things are " sometimes hard to understand" ( said Peter) what of it?

There are many reasons . Denominations have their favourite texts and fail to consider thec" whole council of God"

The Bible is a vast book . The real question is why we think little of it or study?

There are waters up to the ankles so that even a child can ' paddle' in it . Waters up,to the loins".

When young men first go in up to their waste if they are honest they will recognise they fear it for they begin to understand thecpiwerbof the sea much greater than them that it could destroy them. But tomtheir joy find out it supports them and therevis waters to swim in.

But we often play in the sea having a goid time enjoying ourselves but do not consider that we are still but swimming in the shallows and there is a whole sea out there.

Now a few might be able to swim the zEnglish channel but no one is going to swim the pacific i or the Atlantic but what do the scriptures continue to say ? " But I could go no further " and the angel led me to a river which on its banks were trees whos leaves were for the healing of the nations "

The church does not know God as much as it thinks it does . Yes it might as " little children " but far fewer as " young men" ( 1John . Even fewer I think as " Ye fathers you know Him who is from the beginning "

The Bible is primarily a revelation of God and something of the bights depths and breadths of His person .

But we are I think too often trying to establish our own righteousness or making a " name for ourselves" or fighting to the death our "position":of our denomination rather than getting to know Him who so inspired men to write what was written .

"They that know their God shall be strong and do exploits" Not those who know the minute of scripture but little of Him of who the scriptures speak of .

The blood that speaks :

When Cain slew Abel because he refused to go Gods way and humble himself to ask for a lamb . It is written that "the blood of Abel crieth unto me from the earth " It spoke of a crime , in justice , vengeance and retribution .

Consider then the cru that has gone up from all the blood shed from that moment on to this .

But in Hebrews we read that even as there is a better priesthood ,a better promises and a better covenant we also read of the "blood that speaks of betTer things than the blood of Abel " Of mercy ,of grace ,forgiveness reconciliation and of sin already judged .and much more .

The blood is a witness FOR all those who humble themselves and seek Gods forgiveness and mercy . It is a witness not only for all who belueve it is also a witness against the accuser of the brethren. For a witness is expected to speak . In this case of sin already judged . " Fir as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up and if I be lifted up Ibwill draw all men unto me" in that He said ALL ,none are left out .

For " Godvis not willing that any should perish but that ALL shouild cime to a knowledge of the truth " But not all will come " Fir you do resist the Holy Spirit said Stephen of some .

To resist the irresistible is it not to bring destruction upon your self? And to deny the undeniable is it not to bring damnation upin your own head?

Do the blood of Abel speaks unto God from the earth . The blood of Jesus soeajs in heaven .

The tabernacle made with hands was after the pattern " Moses saw in heaven " and thus the altar of sacrifice was in the open under the sun and before all men.

But the blood was taken by the high priest into the Holy of aHolues into the oresen E of God for the sin of the people.

When the Lord met Mary after the resurection ,he said " touch me not for I have not yet gone unto the Father " yet later He allowed her to take his feet . Why?

Thanks GiGi. As I read your sentence, "I recall how Jesus spoke to the teachers of the Torah saying that they diligently search it, but fail to realize that it was written about Jesus from start to finish", I believe you were referring to John 5:39, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

They were diligent in their religious studies, whether in search of the Scriptures that gave them assurance of eternal life, or by doing so, God would have approved & rewarded their hunger to be with Him. But they missed the central thread running throughout the Word about the Giver of salvation and eternal life. Had they searched diligently for the Messiah, alert to the many prophecies about Him and His Coming, they might have learned that the eternal life they searched for was in their Messiah's possession, ready to impart it.

And in despair (as I read it), Jesus spoke to them, "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" ( John 5:40). He was right there with them, the fulfilment of the prophecies about Him, and they still refused to believe in Him, thus forgoing the eternal life they longed for. Reminds me of the times when an answer to a problem stares me in the face, but I just don't see it. Though fortunately for some of them, their blinders were lifted off as the penny dropped, embracing the promised Messiah, the Son of God. Thanks for your added thoughts Gigi on what should be our Christocentric understanding of the whole Word of God.

In the Old testement and the tabernacle you had the place of sacrifice . Which was in the outer court under the light of day and the blood of the lamb was taken from that place and into the most Holy place not seen by the naked eye and into thevoresencevif God . The tabernacle made with hands was made after pattern shown to Moses in heaven . ( Hebrews) . How then do you say "there is no blood in heaven'? For while the blood of Abel spoke to God from the earth does not the blood of Christ speak to God " of better things than Abel" in heaven? As a witness on our behalf .For a witness is expected to speak .

And did not the Lord forbid Mary to touch him fir " He had not yet been to the Father "? Yet later allowed her too.

For the Lord being our high priest was following the pattern of the old who was not to be touched by anyone while He carried the blood of the lamb . So likewise the Lord . And after the resurrection did he not say " flesh and bone"? Rather than the usual ' flesh and blood' ? Because as you said of the scriptures " the life is in the blood" His body was not now animated by blood but by Spirit . His blood had bern shed "for the Sin of the world "and had been presented to the Father who received it and found it acceptable .Thus the Holy Spirit could now be given .

This also applies to the church .

If the church is not ( continually) filled with the Spirit of God it is in effect dead .

There is a world of difference between accidentally losing something and leaving it .

I would suggest (though I don't know )that it is some version of the Bible that has inserted leave instead of lost . Though it might well have been the natural trait of the flesh to weaken the truth to make it more palatable?

Leaving our first love is because somewhere we loved something more . Paul spoke of someone "loving this present rvil world " and is not written that to love the world " the love of the Father is not in you"?

Exposure to truth does not change a person but it is their response to it that changes them .

Given that t is written that there are saints in heaven and "around the the throne " and before the throne " and under the altar etc as found in the book revelation and there are the elders also etc etc yiur assertion that no one goes to heaven is a bit misplaced .

The Bride of Christ will meet the Lord "in the air " and be gone .Where? And having gone gives the spirit of antichrist and the antichrist the 'rope' that has been so longed for .

The Lord will come first FOR His bride and meet in the air then He will come WITH His bride to the earth and she will reign with Him there .

The Jews will be the head of the nations on earth (" not the tail") with the King of Kings the Lord reigning from Jerusalem on His fathers throne David .

There is much to learn and even the above is but scratching the service .

The snare long laid out by the enemy of man's souls that the J W's are the body that has primarily been its sowers .

It taking A truth of the return to the Earth and reigning with His bride but do not speak the whole truth as to Sallvation and the imperative " you must be born again" and that everyone in the kingdom of God must be born again or they will be cast out into outer darkness "for everything that offends will be cast out".

Has caught and deceived many a fish .

Twisting the scriptures to their own destruction .

Did not Paul say to Timothy " ye have the scriotures which are able to make you wise unto salvation" Given that he had then only the Old Testament the way of salvation was laid out also there and first mentioned By God in the garden of Eden .

The list in Hebrews of those people of faith starting at Abel proves it so .

Though they " were not perfected" without us "of the New Testament.They looked forward to Calvary we look back to it but both look forward to the coming of the Lord . Seeking a city that has foundations and built by God..

"Who is it who over cometh the world..?"

Even they who believe that Jesus is the Christ

Even our faith .

The salvation of God was and has always been through Jesus Christ . I wouod agree with you that people were saved before the first coming of the Lord but were " not perfected without us" .

Did not Paul say to Timothy " you have the s ruptures that are able to make you wise unto salvation"?Given that the New Testament scriptures were not yet written or collated he was speaking primarily of the Old Testament .

Thus we can see the way of salvation first laid out in the garden of Eden when God spoke of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent the enmity between them and that there would come one ( "it") born of a woman ( a man) but not of Adams seed ( the seed of the woman) who would bruise the serpents head ( fatal) and in the doing have his heel bruised .

Abel thus conformed to way of God ,Cain did not .thus we have THE faith once and for all delivered to the saints" and the vain hope ( not faith) of false religions of works ( by the sweat of the brow").

Shouid we consider that the children of Isreal knew Gods works but Moses knew His ways"The whole world knows Gods works but how many know His ways?

"God knoweth the way of the righteous .( He has walked it before us all ). But the way of the wicked perishes".

The new Jerusalem is I believe more than' a symbol' But a physical reality for God has more 'substance' than any chair we might be sitting on . Though as you said the Union of both Jewish and Gentile believers into one body will be the most wonderful fulfilment of the ages and in the new heaven and earth "God will fill all in all".