Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2495

I know we are to follow the laws of the land but when they come out with the law to take the mark of the beast what do we do ? Do we still follow the law or break it

Yes, thanks Bob for pointing that out. Matthew 24:2 was fulfilled, not partly, but completely, when Titus came in and destroyed the temple in 70 A.D. I guess it would have been more correct for me to say that at the time Matthew was written (60's A.D) everything was written as future events that had not yet been fulfilled, including Verse 2, the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. If the question had been asked if all these things were to be future events when Matthew was written, the answer would have been yes. If it was asked if any of the things in this chapter already have happened, I would have given a different response. But just looking at the question, it seemed like a general open-ended question. If you notice, I never mentioned Verse 2 at all. I started from Verse 4 and went from there, and those are future events.

Youtube? Is that a good source to get bible truth from?

Well Carlos,

I suppose that's where we differ. You believe that the message Christ was giving in Matt. 24-25 was to the church, and I believe He was giving this warning to the Jewish people. I can share my basis of belief, but like I said, what would be the use since I'm sure you will shoot down whatever it is that draws me to the conclusion of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I asked you in a previous thread, the one that got shut down, why do you continue hounding me about the rapture? How long are you going to drag this on? I do not have an issue with you because you believe in Post Trib. Why would you have an issue with me?

A brother in Christ did an excellent study and it looks like they are two from each of the twelve boundaries on the earth, going back to when the Lord separated the people and confounded their language Genesis 11.

Donna,

Jesus chose Judas as one of the 12 because He needed someone who was evil to carry out this plot as it was predicted in prophecy. He didn't make him evil. He chose an evil person to fulfill that purpose.

Geof: there's a video on YouTube by Stan Telchin. (who was a Jew). He has passed. He has a book with much info in it, where all the Jews fled to.

His daughter got saved at college. He launched himself to prove that Christianity was all wrong. He ended up getting saved at a conference; when he got home he was happy to find out that his wife had gotten saved too.

It gives insight into Jewish thought.

He wrote a book called, Betrayed.

Jesse, the reason I emphasize the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, is because I believer Christ was telling us to prepare for the Tribulation. So if during the Tribulation they say, Christ is here or there, don't believe them. The message Christ delivered in Matt 24-25 is, Be Prepared for the Tribulation you are going to go through. The question remains, how do we prepare Spiritually, Physically, Socially, Politically, Psychologically?

But since you think you will be taken out before that, what is your Biblical basis for that belief? Are there Scriptures you can point to that are not directly related or a repetition of what Christ describes in Matt 24?

What is the basis of your belief?

comments on free will by Alex.Jesus said whosoever sins is the servant of sin, the word servant implies bondage only Christ can make us free whom the son sets free is free indeed.Even Paul had no free will he said when i wd do good evil is present with me and the evil i wd not do is what i do. Oh wretched man that i am.With my mind i serve the law of God but with my flesh the law of sin.Paul was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet just like the donkey and her colt was tied up in a place where 2 ways meet ( the flesh and the spirit ) the wheat and the tares thus a warfare in our minds. But there is no condemnation to them in christ jesus. The law cd not set man free David comes to mind our carnal minds cannot be set free from sin till this corruption puts on incorruption AND THIS MORTAL PUTS ON IMMORTALITY WHEN WE ARE CHANGED when the kingdom comes etc.The kingdom will come via the donkey and her colt which is the woman and her offspring her child being the H.G. as that which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT thats our colt th H.G. our offspring which is born of the spirit th Word when ya see the world in travail and birth pains rejoice greatly thats how the kingdom will come via the woman and her child unless ya receive the kingdom as a lil child etc. Thats y jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light spritually speaking we are the donkey thats y they put their clothes on the donkey and her colt we be the donkey. The kingdom came with the donkey and her colt Jesus was her rider.No man can ride this donkey but JESUS SIMPLY B/C SHE IS THE CHURCH.GBU

What I'm looking for is well known but, I want to be sure, The solders prayer is it Psalms 144:1? in the KJV in the HOLY BIBLE?

Yes, I do recall Paul's letter. It was written to several churches in Asia Minor, in the region of Galatia, written because the false teachers came in and attacked Paul's ministry and message. The Judaizers professed to be believers in Jesus as Messiah, but their doctrinal approach was that the Gentiles are not in a position of Sons of the Covenant to receive the promises of God until they became Jews and they follow the Law. Paul corrected that.

You ask if the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? It was specifically given to Jesus' disciples. There were multitudes that gathered and were listening in; But Jesus specifically was giving this sermon to His disciples only. Now, are there things in Matthew Chapters 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) that we Gentiles can benefit from? I would say yes. And if you recall in one of my previous responses, I already said that. But there are also things written specifically to the Jews that the church today tries to apply to believers that do not apply to the church. There are many teachings found in Matthew that are not found in the other Gospels. That's because Matthew's Gospel specifically pertains to the Jews.

Baptism? The Jews were baptizing long before the church came into existence. Was the O.T. for the Jews only? Originally yes, it was given to the Jews and only the Jews. We have it in our bibles today so that we can study History and Prophecy. It is the history of God working through and in His people, the children of Israel, and prophecy about the coming Messiah.

You keep bringing up that Christ is coming after the Great Tribulation. Is there a reason? I already agreed to that. Concerning the rapture, we will just have to remain in disagreement with each other on the timing. I can layout every reason why I believe in Pre-Trib, but what good would that do? There are at least three views, and no matter what view a person takes, they have scripture to back up their view, and then it becomes "I'm right, and you're wrong!"

Tim Moriaty, you're right. Matt 24:37-38 are stating what conditions will be like prior to the Coming of Christ. However, it is tightly woven into Matt 24:29. Chapters 24-25 are a Warning. In that Warning, Christ happens to mention when we can expect His return, which is Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

Paul reiterates what Jesus said in 2 These 2:1-4, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness-the son of destruction-is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

"Our being gathered together to Him" is a direct reference to the Rapture. When does he say that will be? After the Antichrist exalts himself above God. In Daniel we see the AntiChrist sits in the Holy of Holies and exalts himself above God, in the middle of the Tribulation. Hence, the Rapture will not take place until after that. But to be perfectly clear, Christ adds in Matt 24:29 that it will not only be after the AntiChrist desecrates the Temple, but Immediately After the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.

It goes like this:

1. AntiChrist ascends to Power

2. AntiChrist Descartes the Temple

3. The Great Tribulation

4. Defeat of Israel (Daniel)

5. The Coming of Christ and Rapture

There isn't any other place in the entire Bible that makes the time of Christ's Return so clear. We may not really know how all these troubles are spread throughout history, but we can be certain of one unequivocal thing. Christ won't Return and the Rapture won't take place, until Immediately After the Great Tribulation.

We need to know who is god you need to saved in feel with the holy ghost.

That we need to pray more everyday in we need to praise him more in we need to thank him everyday we must be born again .

From the cross Jesus said, " forgive them they don't know what they are doing." Where would we be now if He had not said that? Stephen said," lay not this sin to their charge." Did this act of forgiveness have any impact on Saul's (Paul) life? Where would we be now missing 13 books of the New Testament? God has already forgiven humanity, we need to forgive each other. If we don't forgive we put ourselves in bondage.

Chris, I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. I don't mean the entire Genesis account is allegorical, but that there is an element of allegory, metaphor and symbolism in it. Many of the passages we read in Scripture are like that. It doesn't devalue or make it less credible. However, with what we now know about history and science, it is imperative for Christians to reexamine the Creation story. The reliability of science on this is not questionable.

Example: Heb 3-4 clearly state we are still in the 7th Day Rest of God. If that is the case. God has not resumed His creative activity for 6,000 years. Consequently, the 7th Day is 6,000 yrs long. That means the 'Day' of Day 7, is not a 24 hour day.

We also know from history that cultures and languages developed much longer ago than 6,000 years, given the earliest writings, such as Gilgamesh and Sanskrit. If there are writings that old, the cultures and languages they came from must be older.

Science tells us, with a high degree of certainty, that the universe is over 13 Billion years in the making. And the earth is approximately 5 Billion years old.

In light of things like that, and what Genesis itself says, I conclude Day 1 was longer than 24 hrs. The same holds true for Day 2 and the rest. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th Day, but in that time, Adam named all the animals, etc. If we accept that God works within the framework of reality, we have to accept that when Genesis says God made trees grow from the ground, it took more than a couple of minutes for it to happen.

So, the story is valid because it conveys a message. But that message is delivered in a package that's not entirely literal. The issue of interpretation comes up because we insist on fitting a square literal peg, in the round hole of reality. It just doesn't fit. But your fears are obvious when you say you don't want God to blame you for accepting that not all of Genesis is hyper-literal. I don't blame you. I was taught the same.

why did judas betray jesus I know what he did but why did he do it

To everyone who responded to my initial question; Between some of your responses, coupled with an email dialog I had with a knowledgeable friend, here is my final thought including my friends previous email (this forum hit the character limit so I could only paste so much of his:

HI Jeff,

Based on your response coupled with all the other research I have done I also conclude that is it SOMEWHAT both, but with a primary and secondary interpretation. I think when a verse is confusing it is best to "keep it simple" and keep it in "context". I am thinking that when one takes v38 completely in context (especially pertaining to v37 which is telling the people at the time about the day Jesus the "Son of Man" is returning - as it relates to all the things above v 4-35) that the primary conclusion is that it is not specifically(primarily) talking about the Rapture. As we know, a lot of the bible is written to specific people at a specific time, but that also the "principal/concept" can have applications for others.

.long story to say: based on scriptural face value, it is not addressing the Rapture, but the concept of being "prepared" can apply to anyone in the church age, especially for those at the time of the anticipated Rapture.

Oh and if we take it on scriptural face value, then even though we don't understand it, we have to believe that the people affected will somehow be living life as "normal", where "normal" could be a way of saying they wont care enough to be ready.

Thanks again,

Tim

Hi Tim

Very good question. This is a question I struggled with for a very long time.

I believe that the context of Matt 24/25 is the tribulation AND the second coming. That all the events of Matt 24 are related to the time of the 7 year tribulation leading up to the second coming of Christ at the end of the 7 years. Matt 25 and the Sheep and Goat judgment is also the second coming when "the son of man comes in his glory"......

M Newsom,

Matthew Chapter 24 is dealing with a future event known as the Tribulation Period. This will be a 7 year period. It is broken up into three sections: Verses 4-14 deal with the first 3-1/2 years, known as "The pains of birth." Verse 15 is known as "The pivotal point" where the antichrist steps in and takes over the temple. And then Verses 16-28 deal with the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period. The last 3-1/2 years is known as the "Great Tribulation," a time when God's wrath will be poured out on a wicked and unbelieving earth.

And then from Verse 29 to Verse 31, we have the promise of Christ's coming. At His second coming, He is going to gather together, His elect, that would be the Jews, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, north, south, east, and west. That's why Romans 11:26 tells us that when Christ returns, all Israel will be saved. When Christ comes at His second coming, those Jews on the earth will be saved, approximately one-third of them that began the tribulation period.

Jesse, thanks for your insight. I wasn't aware of some of the interesting details you mention. What I understand is that Matthew was written for Believers in a Jewish setting. If you recall from Paul's admonitions to the Church in Galatia, there seemed to be a lot of confusion as to what a follower of Christ was was supposed to do. There was a vacuum of knowledge and understanding. Jewish Believers needed guidance. Were they still Jewish? Who exactly was Christ? What were His teachings?

Most of the people Christ addressed were Jewish non-believers. Does that mean that the Sermon on the Mount only applies to Jews? Or that only Jews were to heed Christ's instruction for the Passover Communion? If you recall, there were no Gentiles present at the Passover. Or how about Baptism? Was that only for the Jews? Or the OT, is that for Jews only? Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter to the Jews. Does that mean we don't take anything Peter said as applicable to Gentiles?

Matthew 24 is no more for the Jews only, than the rest of the Bible. The message is to everyone, but even more specifically for the Followers of Christ. Matthew 24:29, whether for Jews or Gentiles, is the only, the only place in the entire Bible that pin points the Return of Christ. And in it, Christ Himself says He is coming after the Great Tribulation. Jewish or not, that is a piece of information valuable to everyone. Daniel 7-12 was written to the Jews, but not for the Jews. It was written for everyone, most particularly, for Believers in Christ.

If you do a careful study of The Day of the Lord, you will find it is limited to the last moment of the Great Tribulation, not the last 3 1/2 years. Same as Wrath. You don't, but many Christians think of the entire Tribulation as The Day of the Lord. But what you say about the Rapture is what Jesus says in Matt 24:29-31. And it happens Immediately After the Great Tribulation. 1 These 4 says the same thing, but doesn't specify, as Christ did.

well said.

Chris, If you believe the tree was an actual unique tree, perhaps it wasn't a corrupt tree. You bring up a good point. But why would God tell Adam and Eve not to eat its fruit if there was nothing wrong with it? Keep in mind that if the tree is an actual tree, then its fruit is an actual fruit which imparted knowledge with one single bite. So God protected the Tree of Life, but what does the Bible say happened to the Tree of Knowledge? As an aside, here is another example of allegory. Ps 104:4, Heb 1:7, "Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire."" So, if that is literal, how long were the Angels there protecting the Tree of Life? And if these trees are no longer there, were they cut down? What happened to them? Did more trees of knowledge grow there?

Your comparison between Adam and God in the Flesh (Jesus) is questionable. Christ came with a Pre-Determined Purpose. Christ is God. Christ was Mature and fully prepared. His response to the devil was, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." James 1:13, "God is not tempted by evil" and in Acts 2:24, "death had no power to hold him". Jesus was a man. But He was God in the body of a man. Death entered the world through Adam, because Adam was weak. But life came through Jesus, the Tree of Life, the resurrection and the life.

I don't agree with your assumption that God wanted to shield Adam and Eve from Knowledge of Good and Evil, to keep them innocent. Is there a Biblical foundation for that? Additionally, you imply corruption wasn't in existence in the Garden. But didn't God send the most corrupt thing in His creation to the Garden? There were 3 things in the Garden, Man, TKGE, TL. Why was the TKGE there?

I won't debate that God created a flawed universe. He didn't. It deteriorated on its own. But think about what you said, 'I would say it was a part of His Perfect Knowledge & His Whole Plan into Eternity allowed for it."

Alex on matthew 13 Jesus said your hearts are the good ground where that good seed will be sown,Now under the new covenant the perfect Garden is our hearts IMPLING OUR SPIRITS thus the tree of life will grow in our hearts our spirits etc. the field is the World,That woman in rev 12 aka as the Church i.e th Church is gona have a baby, we cannot enter the kingdom without this spritual baby which is the H.G..our new inner innerman Thats y we have to know him thats when the good seed will be sown in our hearts and minds our spirits via his seed the word initiating a birth of Christ in us aka as the children of the kingdom, unless ya receive the kingdom as a lil child ( a birth ) you will in no wise enter there in.Its the H.G that is the kingdom Child, we are just a joint heir th bride but its the H.G that gets all the Glory as he is in rank with God. Our Glory is in the fact that the KINGDOM IS GONNA BE WITH IN US and made 1 with us at the marriage. Its the H.G. that comes in his name. In my NAME implies he is the father of the H.G. and Whosoever receives one such child in my NAME RECEIVES ME thus Jesus is the father of the H.G. Thats y he refers to the H.G as the Promise thus Christ is the father of the H.G. THAT WAS THE GREAT PROMISE that Christ wd be multiplied as the Stars of heaven thus the H.G is his seed that heavenly seed that is gonna crush satans head ( mans carnal mind is satans head ) thats y he refered to peter as satan.This matt 13 is about a seed coming that is gonna bring in a Perfect being born in our hearts. When that which is PERFECT is come that which is done in parts will be done away with which is modern day Christianity that answers to the image in Dan 2.THE Babes and sucklings is that which is Perfect that is coming. Outa of the mouths of babes and suckling thou has PERFECTED PRAISE. They come outta of the WORD that Stone cut without hands the good seed. Paul said when that which is Perfect is come,That which is done in Parts will be done away.

So Matthew 24: chapter is the past, present, future. Sometimes you can read and still don't understand. Thanks I would like to stay connect with this site. Blessing

Where does it say satan comes 1st? Wow pay attention to the scripture

P2..from P1.

Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world to be made possible, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis, to the exclusion of everything else, but Titus, 2 Timothy 1:9, Acts 3:8, 17:3, John 20:9, Lk 24:26, 44, Rom 8:3, Heb 7:18, 10:5. From there, I look back at Genesis. but maybe you are right. Maybe God did create everything perfect.

Heb 10:1, For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Heb 7:11, Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood...

The implication is that man was not perfect, even at the moment of creation. The first indication is that he was not Mature in his understanding. We conclude from the fact that s/he could not distinguish between good and evil, they were created in innocence. If Maturity is a sign of Perfection, they weren't. They were not, as you stated, flawed, but were they fully equipped for the task? I might be getting myself in hot water here. Example, a young persons at 30 might be in perfect health because he doesn't have any ailment or issues. But his system and capacity deteriorate. And while healthy, that might not qualify them go excel in Mountain Climbing. Adam had a mountain to climb he might not have been equipped for. The devil was crafty, astute, street wise. Adam and Eve were gullible. But that was no excuse for disobedience. In law, there is a lot of discussion about intent. Were Adam and Eve making a conscious, deliberate and calculated decision to abandon God? Or is there more to the story, we don't know? Probably. Were they better equipped than I think? Perhaps.

did Paul and the Apostles preach the same gospel

I am in discussions with a Jew am I told him I believed the Old Testament refered to someone raising from the dead. Messiah specifically. Can you help me with that please?

No where in the Word of God does it say that John was "exiled" to Patmos. Hebrews through The Revelation were written early, not later, to the 12 tribes scattered to prepare them for The Tribulation.

3 John is written to Gaius, the same Gaius that Paul baptized and traveled with ( 1 Cor 1:14), and also mentions Demetrius, the same Demetrius, the silversmith that Paul dealt with in Ephesus. ( Acts 19:24)

Whoever wrote 3 John knew Gaius and Demetrius personally, he saw them face to face!

Remember that John Mark traveled with Paul throughout Asia, and in 2 Tim 4:11 Paul tells Timothy to take Mark and bring him with thee for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

It makes sense that John Mark would write The Revelation to the 7 churches of Asia that John Mark visited, not the Apostle John who never left Israel.

You have to understand what was going on in those days.

James, Cephas and John and the rest of the apostles knew their ministry was to Israel (circumcision), and Paul knew his ministry was to the Gentiles (uncircumcision) Gal 2:9. They even shook hands on it!

No where in the Word of God does it say that the 12 apostles left Israel.

The "disciple" whom Jesus loved followed Jesus, was at the last Passover at the head of the table next to Jesus, went with Jesus into the high priest's house because he was akin, was at the cross, became the son of Mary, was at the tomb, had a home in Jerusalem where the apostles stayed, knew Peter intimately, knew Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, Gaius, Demetrius and many more in Asia.

I think the right choice for the writer of John, 123 John and The Revelation has to be John Mark.

We can' go by church "tradition" to figure these things out. The Word of God tells us who these people are.

From my research, Moreshethgath is actually a city (maybe more like a township) of Israel (of olden times). The prophet Micah was said to come from there, as he is referred to as Micah, the Morasthite, which is name given to its inhabitants. From the map, it is located roughly between the Dead Sea & Ashkelon.

P1Good points, Chris. The thought that God could make anything He makes less than perfect is a good point to ponder. A commentary on the subject points out that man might have been created immortal and upon eating the fruit, not the fruit itself, but the disobedient act of eating it, divested man of immortality. That seems plausible, in that immortal doesn't necessarily mean eternal. The Angels, apparently are eternal beings, if we understand Christ right when He says that like the Angels, we won't die Lk 20:36. So if God created Angels immortal, why didn't He take that immortality from them, so they too would die? Instead, He sentenced them to eternal punishment.

And as you say, "Yes, the potential to corruption is there, but God's design & execution of creation was without flaw." I am in total agreement. That is the way I see it. Now, the devil knows his days are numbered. And as you aptly claim, the devil seized the opportunity to 'test' Adam and Eve, in an attempt to destroy the work of God. So the question must be asked, was Satan successful in ruining God's perfect creation? And, why did God banish Satan to the Garden of Eden? Why not keep him as far away from His creation as possible? Maybe banish him to Mercury, Pluto or beyond. Why smack in the middle of the Garden? What was God's reason for that?

Was it to test Adam's loyalty? But if God, in His omniscience knew Adam would succumb to the tricks of the devil, why put him through that anyway? Is God so insecure that He has to 'test' His creation to make sure it is loyal to Him? Or did God have another reason for doing that?

Those questions lead me to qualify my response. God, I suppose, created mankind 'perfectly suited' for His Purpose. The Fall had to be a consequence of exposure to the elements of creation, for Christ's entrance into the world, who according to Titus 1:2 was programmed before creation, to be made possible. I guess my starting point in this discussion is not Genesis...continued P2