Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2504

Ric - I am no fan of the Pope or the Vatican. However it was not Rome that killed the apostles, the prophets or Jesus.

King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.



John 7:1 - After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.

Revelation 11:8 - And their (2 witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jesus, my LORD, was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom)

Jesus in John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 23:12 - And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Jesus speaks in Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (ALL Pharisees are Jews, not all Jews are Pharisees) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Rabbis say Jesus was antisemitic)

2 Thessalonians 2:7, I'm thinking upon the pre-tribulation vs post Tribulation, so I see: v7 who now lets will let, (Father) until he be taken out of the way, (Antichrist).

The God the Father let's the evil one work iniquity, until the son of perdition will be revealed and he will be taken out of the way.

Matthew 24:31 and he shall send his Angels with a great sound of a Trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds.

I see: the last Trump of God , the 7th Trump is the post Tribulation rapture.

I can understand that we have been taught the pre-tribulation rapture is what most believe, but does anyone take the time to search this out. I see: God's rath is poured out at the battle of Armageddon and before that God sends the angels at the last Trump to gather us home. Could this be ?

Ken You write "if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times"

Do you dare to compare yourself with a sinless God by claiming repent means to the same thing for both of us?

Sinful man vs a sinless God? Have you never known words to have more than one meaning?

So in Revelation 2 when the Lord told the Believing church to repent, what were they repenting of?

Their unbelief? A change of mind.

Revelation Chapter 2

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

except thou repent.

telling the BELIEVING CHURCH to REPENT OF WHAT?

UNBELIEF?

Hi Chris,

I think the interpretation of scripture I'm reading from you can be described as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.

The way I interpret your comment it that it says you will lose your salvation by grace if you seek to obey any of God's laws. That's a pretty serious claim which Jesus himself said is false. Have you prayed about this and asked God to confirm if this is actually true before spreading this around to other Christians? What if the people you tell will result in them not seeking to obey God's law anymore and following the world instead, would you consider that a good thing or bad thing? Are Christians really supposed to tell others that if they obey God, that they risk going to hell? To me it's clear that's not what the Bible says. Matthew 5:48 is Jesus says to try and strive to be perfect- and it sounds like you might disagree with that verse. Jesus fulfilled the law, died on the cross for or sins, and we're in grace if we follow Jesus, but he didn't say to stop trying to obey, but the opposite. Philippians 2:12 - with fear and trembling to pursue Jesus. This is an active effort, not a passive status.

So, I'll get back to the heart of the matter- which is the throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this analogy, the baby is God's law and trying to be obedient to God, and the bathwater is legalism- trying to 'earn' someone's way to heaven. Romans 6 says not to throw out the baby, James 2 the same. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law doesn't mean it's null and void. This point was already explained in the scripture and I don't see any other way to interpret it. To say that some scripture doesn't apply because its to Jews isn't a valid point as the other verses cited were also written to Jews and specific groups too. The Bible is for all.

May God bless you...

Revelation 13:1-8 ...'And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.'

1. IT RISES OUT OF THE SEA - Sea in prophecy represents an area of different people, nations and tongues ( Rev. 17:15). The Roman Catholic Church rose to power amongst the many different nations, people and tongues of Europe. It also has the largest support of people around the world than any other church or religion.

2. NAME OF BLASPHEMY ON THE HEADS - The Roman Catholic Church make blasphemous claims and speak great swelling words which are against God.

3. IT RECEIVES A DEADLY WOUND, WHICH WOULD BE HEALED - The Papal Church of Rome received a deadly wound in 1798 when the French army marched into Rome, taking the pope captive and ending the rule of the Papacy. Then in 1929, the Vatican received state power again which was signed into law by Mussolini.

4. IT MAKES WAR WITH THE SAINTS OF GOD - The Roman Catholic Church killed tens of millions of Christians during it's reign.

What are other than the children of God? When will we see our faults as failures?

Research this info and you will see that the anti christ system is hiding in plain site.

Daniel 7:8,21,25 .....'I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.'

1. IT'S A LITTLE HORN - This is a little kingdom which matches the Vatican State as being the smallest kingdom in the world.

2. IT COMES UP OUT OF THE BEAST - The beast is Rome, and the Roman Catholic Church came to power from the Roman Empire.

3. IT RISES AMONG THE TEN HORNS - The Roman Catholic Church arose amongst the ten nations of Europe.

4. IT RISES TO POWER AFTER THE OTHER TEN HORNS - Rome fell in AD476 and split into the ten kingdoms of Europe. Then the Roman Catholic Church came to power in AD538.

5. UPROOTS THREE OF THE OTHER TEN HORNS - The Roman Catholic Church had three of the original kingdoms of Europe destroyed. The Vandals, Ostrogoths and the Heruli.

6. IT HAS EYES AND MOUTH OF A MAN - So this kingdom has a visible leader at the helm just like the pope.

7. IT PERSECUTES THE SAINTS OF GOD - The Roman Catholic Church killed tens of millions of Christians during it's reign in the "dark ages".

8. IT'S DIVERSE FROM THE OTHER HORNS - The other kingdoms were purely political kingdoms, but this one is "different". The Papal Church of Rome is a political AND religious kingdom

9. IT WILL SPEAK AGAINST GOD - The Roman Catholic Church speaks great boastful words which are against God.

Hi Bob this is Ken I agree with you on the first two Commandments these are the Commandments of Christ The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross as you are well aware of by the scriptures Jesus himself said not to put new wine into old wineskins he was referring to the age of Grace the church age in which we are living right now and if repent means to turn from sin then God is a sinner because he repented so many times I can't even count for everyone who wants to know that the Commandments of Christ are 1st John 4:21 and this is the Commandment we have from him that we he who loveth God loves his brother. 1st John 5

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, OUR FAITH......

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:11 he that has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the church is he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. We learn in 1st John 5 that the Overcomer is the one who puts their faith in Jesus Christ or believes is finished work what is his finished work? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them this is the work of God that you believe on him who he sent! And when he was talking to the church. And when he told the church in Revelation to repent he wanted them to come back to his first work ,which was to believe on Christ and go forth with that teaching! what they were doing as we have in this day and age and which you have presented is another gospel in which you mingle works with our faith Works cannot come until we have faith.

I agree with you

Those who have aspirations have thousands of things, and those who have no ambitions only feel that it is difficult

These verses should warn us about who we have in our lives,in our hyper social society people feel the need to be always around people and they shun solitude or standing alone.The bible teaches the opposite.

Those are lovely truthful comments you have given, Adebayo. If only Christ's Church do as you do, by not only supporting the work of the ministry, but also looking out for those in need. Then the Gospel becomes more meaningful when the one being helped sees the Love of Christ in action, whether through monetary gift or other help. God bless you in your ministry to the saints: He sees your love in action.

Adam, re: Jn 14:15. Is Jesus speaking here of the Law that was given to the Jews, or about His commandments? Is there a difference? Jesus came as the fulfilment of God's Laws, i.e. He is God's Law, He came to present the WHOLE Law ( Mt 5:17 ff), He became the Law to everyone who believes ( Rom 10:4). So our obedience is not to the Jewish Law which only brought death ( 2 Cor 3:6-17), but to Christ's Law (= Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Rom 8:1-4). I've never intimated that the Law given to the Jews were defective or defunct, but they were no longer binding on those "in Christ", as Christ's new Law = His commandments, go far higher in meaning & application than the old could ever do, & that too, given by God's Grace to us & His Power to us to obey them. So then, does this "New Law" through Jesus make mockery of God's original Law? Never. Jesus came to be its fulfilment in totality (i.e. Ten Commandments plus all the sacrificial & ceremonial Laws), so our obedience to Divine Laws are to be through His Spirit's ministration, as He writes them in our minds & hearts (again I use the 2 Cor 3:6-17 reference).

I'm sorry Adam, I don't follow your intimation in your succeeding remarks. If you could direct me to my particular quote, since I can't find any of my comments on grace & works in this thread (unless you are referring to my reference in Rom 11:5,6, which is not connected with works & grace in our usual application, but the working of God's Grace that nullifies man's (Jews) strict obedience to the Law to gain merit with God). However, if I've misunderstood your comments in this regard, please refresh me.

I love the way the LORD gives us all these words of assurances of his Love and Protection. He lets us know we have only to trust in his presence for its always there. So all we need to do is rejoice in it.

Ric. Interesting read on the Pope. There is a logic to your argument that's well developed. I wonder if the AntiChrist is a name used for both a Political Leader that will take over Europe and the Middle East and a Religious Leader at that time? There are some things John says in Revelation that lead us to believe that Rome is at the heart of the Kingdom the AntiChrist will set up, because of the reference to 7 hills on which Rome was initially built.

Daniel, as well as Revelation give us a glimpse into the nature and character of the AntiChrist. And here is my question. A new religion surfaced in the 600's that quickly took over the world. Through their followers, they made several attempts to establish a caliphate that embraced the world. Daniel speaks of a new religion that will be dominant when the AntiChrist enters the political and religious scene. We have seen how their attempts to establish a kingdom has been limited. But today, we see its influence increasing, particularly in Europe. An interesting fact is that the Messiah or Mehdi of this religion parallels the description Daniel and John give of the AntiChrist.

There are two contending religious and political ideologies in the Middle East and Europe, that have been and will be central to all political, religious and military actions.

1. Given the political and religious climate today, what role do you perceive this new religion will play to achieve peace in the Middle East?

2. In the rise of the AntiChrist?

3. In the persecution of Christians and Jews?

4. In the coming destruction of Israel?

5. Daniel refers to the armies that will rise against Israel as Persia and John as Babylon. What is the correlation?

6. What role will this religion play for acceptance of the AntiChrist?

7. Will this religion accept a peace treaty, other than from their own?

8. How will this leader establish ties to the Roman Church?

Dan 7-12, Joel, Zechariah, Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation

In the Beginning, God Created the Heavens and the Earth. In it, He placed a Garden. In it, He also placed Adam and Eve. And God declared everything He created, Perfect.

1. Why didn't the Garden cover all of the earth?

2. What is the meaning or definition of a Perfect Garden?

3. How do weeds grow in a Perfect Garden?

4. How Perfect were the people God created and placed in the Garden?

5. What are the flaws of Perfection?

6. If Adam and Eve were Perfect, how was it possible for them to disobey God?

7. Where did God go wrong with creation?

Hello fellow people send this to all the people who could need a change of heart. The world is complex so much things so much.... I understand what you mean when you say i don't understand this or that and you are not getting the explanation you need but listen wait and TRUST the lord for he will show you and answers you question, you may be asking how do i know God is real well i have faith and i am not sure if its real but you must trust to have a brighter day.

Larry B Jesus was, is and always shall be God, who came in the flesh to redeem mankind from sin and death.

1 Timothy 3:16

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." King James Version (KJV)

God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12

God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

-- Acts 4:12

...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

-- 2 Timothy 2:10

This verse reminds me of how God is gracious for his servants.If you repent and turn to him with your whole heart.

what does the word Bonds mean in verse 9?

Amen! God Bless

Until the Church starts showing the kind of love of Jesus Christ to her members, it will continue like this.

It is a nice write up. I have come to understand that given is not only limited to church. Even the given of tithe to the Church is not compulsory. Tithe as it is referred to that it must be 10% is not so. If you have the capacity to give more than that why not and vice verse. God would never be on you that you must pay tithe. I don't argue this issue with any pastor again. Sometimes I decided to give my tithe to the poor in the church instead of given it to the church and eventually the tithe is taken to church headquarters leaving members of the local church in abject poverty.

The issue of tithe, we must understand that God does not spend money. We must understand that whatever we are giving to the church or to anyone is an act of worship to the Lord. So, God expect us to give willingly and not as compelled to do so. Some pastors even went to the extent of saying if you don't pay your tithe you would go to hell. So . Some people say if they see a sick member of their churches that need money to take care of himself they preferred to take the tithe to church than given the money to the sick man. I called this hypocrisy. When you Jesus has already told us that when you do this to the least in my house you have done it onto me. Where is the Christ like in that act if we claim to be following Jesus.

Rev 12 1-4 ;

He is the dragon that deceived the world since 200 ad. They change the persona of jesus to god, defiling the first commandments. And killed all those who will put up a different theology. Until Martin Luther, with 8 million death, the true Christian started but with the injection of john Calvin defiling the worship. Then in 1964 they bring everything back to their fold bringing the church to wilderness rev 12 ;14-17. But take note GOD ALMIGHTY IS NOT CONDEMNING ANYONE. JUST AS HE IS READY TO FORGIVE THE JEWS HE IS HERE INUS READY TO FORGIVE ALL YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT JESUS IS HIS SON. HALLELUJAH

First let me tell you something about Covid 19, it started in China then Italy and Britain and US. Covid 19 is man made just like nuclear bomb. The first victim of the nuclear bomb was japan All of them have one thing in common they don't believe in god almighty.

Now if you believe in god almighty and jesus his SON , you have nothing to worry because even if you become a victim you have nothing to worry because you have a 2nd life. But it is unlikely that it will come to you. Because if you will observe it is attacking non GOD FEARING PEOPLE. .

Rev: 12 is the history of the Christianity. First it was started by our king JESUS AS HE WAS KILLed and brought up to heaven . Then the killing of

Hi Chris, just noticed your comment...

>If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law.

Jesus disagrees with this in John 14:15. Jesus directly says if you love him you will keep his commandments (law). If you don't obey, then you don't love Jesus. If someone doesn't love or follow Jesus then they likely won't be invited to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

James 2 explains how grace and works work together. Its possible what you were trying to say is actually from James 2:10, but it doesn't say what you wrote. If you read on it clearly supports doing good works. No where in the Bible does it say we're NOT supposed to obey God or Jesus. It says the opposite throughout.

I watch out for anyone claiming good works are 'bad', as if following Jesus and his commands are bad. But somehow that not worrying about following Jesus's commands is 'ok' despite the exact words Jesus said that say the opposite. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Calling good bad sounds awfully familiar as if it comes a deceiver.

If you pursue Christ you are a Christian under grace, but following Him is an activity involving effort. It's not human effort that saves anyone, but it should be the natural fruit of loving Jesus. Many call themselves Christians and don't love Jesus, because they don't obey, and they will be surprised in the end just as Jesus predicted: Revelation 3:16 and Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 10:26.

Rev11 the two witnesses are the muslims in Jerusalem GOD Put them there. Isaiah 43 and Ezekiel 43 phropecy is about them the men from the east. Now they are the worshippers there as foretold also by jesus john 4 ;21-23 , the worshippers. At present the gentile that were to defile were the people pretending to be Jew. They are not Jews they lost there race a long time ago when they intermarry with the Greeks, that's why they became Caucasian. Now the witnesses are done. The 1230 days is done in 1914. And our world is heading into a great catastrophy. GOD ALMIGHTY BLESS US ALL. BUT TAKE NOTE GOD IS NOT THE ONE THAT IS BRING US INTO TROYBLE. ITS MAN HEADED BY THE BEAST IN REV. 12

Carlos. Those were great & pertinent comments - I agree wholeheartedly with you about the Church's condition & hypocrisy that often permeates its being. False teaching, leading humble, enquiring souls into damnation, also remains the order of many a so-called Church. We do have clear Scripture on our behaviour as believers & as a Church meeting together, but if any choose to think or do things in opposition, it is ultimately to be left with them as they only are answerable to both God & conscience. Their salvation nevertheless, based on faith in Christ's finished Work, remains secure. The 'keeping of the Sabbath' is a particularly nasty one: fusing the Law with Grace, is what the apostles had to constantly grapple with.

Page 5.

7. Rom 5:13-15. I understand these verses (in paraphrase) to read: (v 13) 'until the delivery of the Law, sin was already in the world, but sin is not chargeable when there is no law'. So, without a Law, sin, though evident, is not chargeable. True, the Mosaic Law was not given at that time, but the Law of God was still evident with Adam & Eve, directly from the Mouth of God. Whether they learned their lesson from this & somehow resisted any other sin is unknown, but sin took its root in them. (v 14) 'death passed on from Adam to Moses (until the written Law), & sin affected all even those who didn't sin in the way that Adam/Eve sinned, & Adam being a figure of the One Who was to come'. (v 15) 'because of Adam, death has come to all, by Jesus Christ (the last Adam), God's Gift of Grace has been made available to many'.

So, "God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption". I agree with this statement that God knew that corruption would result in His Creation, but I have argued against 'that God had planned for this to happen so that His Son could come to Earth to redeem sinners'. God knew that Jesus would one day have to lay down His Life, but Creation wasn't planned to that end, or else, why even bother to create? Why put your Son to such agony, even as a man, & grieve your Own Heart so bitterly, just to fulfil Your Plan to have Your Son die for us? I'll leave it here & wonder whether this part of the thread is worth pursuing, unless there is some specific clarification I need. Thank you again for your time & clarity in your expression.

Page 4.

4. "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation". We dealt with this before as I believe it wasn't inevitable at creation, but was inevitable as a result of man's disobedience. I also read through Rom 8,10 & could find no reference to God "placing all of His creation, including Angels, in a corruptible creation, so he could fix the problem of corruption". I did find Rom 8:19,38 on angels, but this had nothing to do with your statement.

5. Isa 48:7. "they are created now & not from the beginning.." 'Created', from the Hebrew, 'ginetai' = done now. In other words, all those hidden things of God have now been brought to light. Don't want to dwell on this, as there's opportunity for dispute here.

6. The Genesis account. Eve no doubt contemplated & was attracted by the fruit. Satan's involvement added further fuel to her thoughts, but she initially resisted him. Her innocency was real till that point: once the fruit was taken & eaten, sin entered. I simply can't fathom an extended time of sin's maturation in Adam & Eve for sin to finally develop. In that case, maybe if they were smart, they could have sought forgiveness & thus avoided sin taking root & becoming sin. Two trees: Tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil and Tree of Life. Do you see personalities in these trees? I know that in Rev 22:2, the Tree of Life is present. (onto Page 5).