Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2502

Hello, cherry picked verses can often lose context. For example: John 10:28, if you read before it, in verse 25 Jesus says his own works bears witness (fruit) of Him (same as with Christians), verse 27 says his sheep hears His voice and follow Him- that's an active pursuit requiring action on the part of the followers, just like to follow Jesus it requires action as a Christian. And 28 He will give them eternal life. Eternal life is given after judgment, but some are claiming they have eternal life BEFORE they're even judged regardless of their fruit or blasphemy, etc. Mt 12:32 clearly says anyone who commits blasphemy will not be forgiven, not only on earth now, but in the future.

Mild Bill,

Thank you so much for bringing this out. The 1,000 year reign is another beautiful example of how gracious God is. Out of His grace and mercy, He gives so many opportunities for people to come to Him, and yet some will continue to have hearts of stone. Satan will be bound up in the bottomless pit for the entire 1,000 years and no longer have any influence on the lives of people. But then he is loosed after the 1,000 years for a short season to deceive, and some will go right back to following him.

After the thousand years, we leave with Christ. And the people on the earth who are left over from the tribulation, who still are not saved, but they've been given this one thousand year opportunity to live under the rule of Christ with Satan bound, when Satan is let loose, they will go back to Serving Satan again.

I think it's a tragedy, but we have to understand that when a person is a rejecter of Christ, you could send him to heaven for a thousand years and say "Look how nice it is here," and when he comes back he's going to reject it. Nothing's going to impress him to be saved.

Again, thank you so much for bringing this out. God's grace is so powerful and unending!

Amen!!!In the Name of Jesus

Angeline, With respect to keeping the Sabbath, what were the requirements? What is your take on statements that seem to say it doesn't matter if you keep the Sabbath?

Mark 2:27

Then Jesus declared, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Mark 7:19

because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated." (Thus all foods are clean.)

Romans 14:3

For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him.

Romans 14:5

One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 4:10

But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

Colossians 2:20

If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.



1 Timothy 4:3

They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Hebrews 9:10

They consist only in food and drink and special washings--external regulations imposed until the time of reform.

I know that Mathew 24 is all about the 2nd coming and NOT the rapture. That said; I wonder how Mathew 24:38 can be; because at the time of the 2nd coming, the world will be in such chaos that things can not be "normal" as the verse implies? I wonder if it refers to the Jews that have been protected during the 2nd half of the tribulation? Or even if it were to refer to the "goats", even they will be in complete chaos?

Terasa,

Paul begins the verse by saying wherein I suffer trouble. He's been put in prison for being part of an "Illegal religion." He says I suffer as an evil doer. He's in prison like a criminal, even unto bonds; That word bonds is the Greek word for chains.

Here it is: but the word of God is not bound.

There's an old saying that comes from this verse, you can bind the messenger, but you cannot bind the message.

There were many testimonies of people who were imprisoned for Christ, and who suffered for Christ's sake like Paul, and the gospel just spread like wildfire.

Can you imagine the first imprisonment, when they chained Paul to those soldiers, and people were coming and going all day long, and Paul was talking about Jesus Christ, and you have to wonder who's being held prisoner here?

Remember Paul and Silas were in jail in Philippi and there was a big earthquake, and the Philippian jailor thought all the prisoners had escaped, and Paul said don't kill yourself, we're all still here.

And he said sirs, what must I do to be saved? What must I do to know this kind of God that you know?

God put them in prison so that the prisoners could hear the message, and so the jailor could hear the message, and the jailor's family could hear the gospel message.

We feel bad, and even complain when our life is limited, and when we can't do what we want to do. And yet the history of the church, so many martyrs, and so many people who have suffered for Christ, lost their lives for the sake of the gospel.

So always remember this. They can bind the messenger, but not the message!

In fact, if they put you in jail for being a Christian, they're doing themselves a great disservice, because you can just spread the gospel to everyone that's in jail!

Hi Chris and Adam,

I wondered whether to put my two cents in where it may not be welcomed, especially after the matter had been settled between you two, which is always a good thing, whether an agreement or not, I learned a lot by reading this thread, but it brought to mind that Scripture " John 10:28-30 (NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

My mother would drill that Scripture into my head, over and over, while I was growing up, "If you are truly His, NOBODY will be able to pluck you out of God's hands." Which was comforting to me.

I guess that's why I found this thread so fascinating, loosing one's faith verses eternal security, but I have to say, God knows the heart, ( Jeremiah 17:10)

I was saved at twelve, I remember it very well, I was saved completely, and read my Bible all the time, was zealous to the things of God, but through-out my life, I was never the 'perfect' Christian, by some in church today, but God loved me anyway, and for some strange reason, He has chose me to minister to those who are broken, in a world that rather ignore them, even in the church. I guess, there's a purpose for everything.

Now, back to why I decided to respond, you two are brilliant men of God, I hope and pray you continue to grow in the knowledge, grace, and wisdom God has given you, and not let a disagreement grow to resentment.

Thanks again for everything,

Etta

This might answer your question read and contemplate what this reformer said.

Nicolaus Von Amsdorf (1483 - 1565)

"He (the antichrist) will be revealed and come to naught before the last day, so that every man shall comprehend and recognize that the pope is the real, true antichrist and not the vicar of Christ ... Therefore those who consider the pope and his bishops as Christian shepherds and bishops are deeply in error, but even more are those who believe the the Turk (ISLAM) is the antichrist. Because the Turk (ISLAM) rules outside of the church and does not sit in the holy place, nor does he seek to bear the name of Christ, but is an open antagonist of Christ and His church. This does not need to be revealed, but it is clear and evident because he persecutes Christians openly and not as the pope does, secretly under the form of Godliness." (Nicolaus Von Amsdorf, Furnemliche und gewisse Zeichen, sig.A2r.,v.)

What is the name of the judgement of true born again believers ? Is it called the Bema?

You make some compelling points that have to be examined carefully. But couldn't the same be said of other religions? The thinking has been that the Catholic Church could be at the heart of this, though it isn't something Catholics themselves welcome.

My thinking is that sort of corruption happens at the higher levels. We are told that the antichrist is already at work. And that includes a slow departure from sound doctrine from within the universal church.

End Time prophecies are very difficult to understand, because of their complex nature. Most usually have historical fulfillments that are sort of a precursor of the final outcome. One is the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Will the Temple be rebuilt? If not, how would Daniel's prophecy that the Abomination will proclaim himself God in the Holy of Holies, take place?

But as that time gets closer, we will understand more. Are there any other possibilities here?

Well,having read everything that takes me back in 2014 when I had a revelation and I asked myself for years what it really met and why would God show me something so poeerf like that,me,a tiny young woman of 25years by that time

I found myself in an endless garden ,it had fruits ripened and attractive, it had homosexuals, it had bars,clubs swiiming pools every luxurious place was in that beautiful garden ,people happy dancing, others smoking ,drinking having sex in broad day light,i admired to go that side and enjoy too.

As I made a step,I heard voices I looked up,i saw 3 angels only faces were human the rest was covered in white garments in a white cloud one was Michael the leader ,but he was very angry the voice told commanders them, Go down in the garden, wipe away anything that is contaminated, any one that has eaten of that fruit of poison not even a small grass will u leave as long as it's contaminated.

I saw them destroying that side I desired to go to,nothin was left except there's was a fruit dome near me and I wanted to bend pick it eat it,but one angel said to Michael, Look back,someone is getting contaminated, Go destroy her,I never picked it,he flew back up,I woke up.

For long time,it disturbed me,it's here in 2020,I see that revelation happening and it's powerful.lets pray and turn away from evil go.the days are dark and we need to be pure when that angel of death comes to take

no...for kingdom age....

Joel's prophecies can only come true in the Kingdom Age, Christians are not given signs, wonders, dreams and vision. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, access to the Throne of Grace, a completed Bible, and the command to 'walk by faith...

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit." Joel 2:28,29 (KJV) READ IT ALL...

"And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." Joel 2:30,31 (KJV).

Your comments are enlightening. Why does God allow so much friction in the Church? Why so many denominations?

Chris, on your point 6, Page 4, I believe the Trees in the Garden are representative of Satan and Christ. Association with one results in separation from God and the other, eternal life with God. In Rev the Tree of Life is identified as Jesus. In another place we are encouraged to taste to confirm that God is good. Yet in another, we are given an outline of the Fruit of the Spirit.

The Genesis account of the Garden is clearly allegorical. And the Tree of the knowledge...is no exception. Knowledge is absorbed through time and experience. When Paul says that evil company corrupts good morals, do you think he means that as soon as you enter the presence of an evil person, you become instantly corrupt? Corruption, by definition, is a deterioration of something good. It involves a decomposition, breakdown, deterioration, a weakening disintegration of something whole. Fruit putrefy because they begin to decompose. Animals die because their systems begin to break down and weaken. Taking my lead from Songs 2-5, which mirror events in the Garden of Eden, I see a slow progression from innocence to craftiness. It wasn't just one bite of a non-existent fruit that corrupted them. It was the constant association with what God told them to stay away from.

Was there a fruit for the Tree of Life? What did it mean to eat from the Tree of Life? What does it mean now? Will we become instantly perfect when we eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life? Rev 22:2 tells us the Tree of Life yields 12 different kinds of fruit. Are these fruit physical and eatable? Clearly not. Is there a correlation between the two Trees in the Garden? Can one be metaphorical, but not the other? If one symbolizes Christ, is the other literal?

Christ was tempted by the devil 40 days. He wasn't confronted just once with 3 temptations. These temptations were spread over the course of Christ's time in the desert. My point is that Adam and Eve were coaxed over time, because their character deteriorated.

What is the difference from frankincense and the incense ( Samagra )burnt by Hindus

Tongues are the initial evidence that one has received the gift of the HolyGhost. There are nine gifts of the Spirit outlined in I Corinthians 12. Paul wrote to the Corinthians to help things in order; for they were all out of order. The gift of tongues outlined in I Corinthians 12 is part of the nine gifts of the Spirit. Every believer who received the HolyGhost may not have the gift of tongues. While a person will speak in tongues when they receive the HolyGhost according to Acts 2:4 and Acts 2:38, he or she may not have the gift of tongues. I have never witnessed where one speaks in tongues in the congregation and there was no one who could interpret what was said. I understood what you documented from I Corinthians 14. I agree. Again, there are nine gifts: 1) word of wisdom; 2) word of knowledge; 3) gift of faith; 4)gifts of healing; 5)working of miracles; 6) gift of prophecy; 7) discerning of spirits; 8) divers kinds of tongues; and 9) interpretaion of tongues. These gifts are operating in the church today. I have witnessed all nine in operation in the body of Christ. They are in people. Some people may have one gift; while others have multiple gifts. God has set them in the church to edify the body of Christ and bring glory to Him. Tongues are not forbidden in the body of Christ; and all should seek to bring glory to God by edifying the church. Prophesy edifies the church; tongues edify an individual believer. We should all, if do not posess the interpretation( not a translation) of tongues, pray that we may interpret. Again, I have witnessed all nine gifts in operation. You can interpret if you desire that gift from God. Trust me, I know. But we should desire spiritual gifts to bring glory to God and to edify or encourage the fellow believer. Again, God is still fulfilling prophesy ( Joel 2:28). Christians need the leaders of the body of Christ to teach them what is proper and orderly.

Chris. Page 4.

Romans 8:19-23 - The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Peter 1:10-12 - which things the angels desire to look into.

You are right. While the passage mentions that creation was subjected to futility, it does not mention Angels. I must have assumed it did. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. What I think the passage does mention is God's Plan to eradicate corruption, when it says, "in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay". What I thought the passage said about the Angels is found in 1 Peter, but I was wrong about that too and I am glad you corrected me. The Bible does not say Angels will benefit from God's Plan of Redemption.

My argument, however, is that God's eternal Plan was for the annihilation of corruption, which includes death and evil. Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

I suppose my thinking was that because Angels were also created and were subject to corruption, the Plan included them. But that was a stretch. As you pointed out, there is no mention of that at all.

He is the first born son of Isaac.

Jessie&Chris,While believers indeed have a certain future in Christ to be with him in heaven,don't overlook the 1000yr. reign of Christ on Earth, which will happen after the rapture.God made promises to Israel to be yet fulfilled,to Israel,God's earthly nation

among nations.As resurrected,unblemished servants of Christ,we will be with him here as he rules the Kingdom of God on Earth,and Satan bound in hell.While I have no details of our daily lives then, I do know the supernatural powers Christ demonstrated in the gospels, will be commonplace at that time, according to his will.Mankind fails seven dispensations of time, given by God,then God,by his grace,takes us into eternity.Innocence,conscience,government,promise,law,grace and the kingdom,all revealed by scripture.

I believed in god there is noting god can not do god this good in everything he help me many years ago when I was sick god hill me I have many rezing to thank god in my life since that time till today god is always with me and my family. Well I believed I sam: 23

A great Scripture in Galatians, Mishael. That was indeed the purpose of the Law, that ultimately it was to show to both Jew & Gentile that justification could never be by the Law, but by Grace through Faith. That obedience to the Law only brought death ( Rom 7:10; 8:2).

Adam, I appreciate the time you've taken. Sadly, we're in disagreement to a degree. One thing is for sure: I believe in the believer's eternal security & you don't, & I accept that, because I too once shared that position. So I won't bring that up here. But to your other points, briefly.

1. my position on obedience to the Ten Commandments is also shared by many & this is nothing new. It is a matter of understanding Law & Grace & the perils of fusing them together.

2. about Satan's deceptions, to this I would agree. But of course, from the 'camp' that I rest in, we would vigorously stand against Satan's deceptions in the other 'camp'. So, no conviction of error borne here.

3. true, Rom 6:2 was quoted, but the second quote is mine as a response to the first. And this was said to affirm that, if we are dead to sin, it is impossible to live any longer therein. Paul isn't talking about isolated sins, for which we immediately repent & are forgiven, but to those who desire to continue in that lifestyle of sin. This is impossible & this would be the expected response to Paul's question.

4. Judas, nor the disciples could be considered Christians; Christians are such because of the indwelling Holy Spirit post Crucifixion & Resurrection of our Lord. As well, I don't want to be repetitive with correctly dividing between the Old & New Testaments - true Jesus' Words/Parables were spoken to the Jews in relation to Kingdom Life & their behaviour, but all this was a precursor to the great power from His shed Blood & the power of the Holy Spirit which would change some of his hearers, including his carnal disciples.

5. we accept others as fellow Christians as we should & because we aren't in a position to judge them. Only God knows. What if that 'believer' rejects Christ in toto? Why do we then decide to look at that sad situation from our perspective & not God's? Let us look at it as God does. Can you or I ever know the state of one responding to an altar call? I don't.

I don't think so,

The 2nd Chapter of Colossians is on atonement in general,but I believe Paul is dealing with the ultra religious, those who 'swallow a camel, but strain out a gnat. Matthew 23:24

Ref: Further in Chapter 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

Carlos, thanks for attempting to respond to my queries: you're a brave man especially as our responses can go all over the place! To your answers:

A. I don't have a problem of maintaining that Christ was already in God's Plan in Creation, as God, being God, already knows the future & His Plans for it. It's the other postulations that concern me.

B. Heb 10:5, speaks of the temporary, deficient & incompleteness of the sacrificial system & that only God's offering would accomplish God's Purposes. It does not speak of man being created to open the way for Christ to come & be his Sacrifice. And with Gal 3:16 & Rom 11:36, I can't see any connection.

C. Heb 2 & Gal 3:16: sorry, I can't see in these references anything about God having to create man so as to then send His Son for man's sake.

D. Rom 9:22-24. This shows that God was 'long suffering' towards 'sinners' awaiting the time He would show His great Mercy towards them. I don't see in this that God supported evil (i.e. he partook of or gave His assent to evil, so as to accomplish His Purposes).

E. Job 1:12. God allowed Satan to test Job's faithfulness & conviction, not in bringing Satan to test Job.

Mt 4:1; Lk 4:2. Ditto. Again, Satan approached Jesus, not brought to Him by God.

Eph 3:10, 11. The theme of this begins in verse 3. It was about the "mystery of Christ". And what was it? In verse 6, "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs (with the Jews), and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel." "And this mystery would be made known to all men (v 9) & to all the heavenly host (v 10), as well as from the Church's existence & testimony of this mystery, of God's manifold Wisdom". I've added words here, only for clarity, as in the original the intent is unclear. Of course, with any addition, comes another interpretation, so I leave this open.

Today we see Iran as one of the strongest enemies of ISREAL ,yet King Ahasuerus made a law then in biblical times for the Jews not to be destroyed ,if only people would read the bible and believe in Jesus Christ a lot of these trails and tribulations we go through would be eliminated

part 4:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - talks about temptation. If a Christian can't sin and is saved regardless then what is the reason to avoid temptation? Why would it matter?

If all the Christians were already saved then why would Paul wrote so many books to each of them to encourage them to stay the course, run the race, to avoid sin, and be obedient. Why? If they're already saved, what's the point?

You know that most of the New Testament books are written to Christians, right? 1 Corinthians is literally to the church of Corinth as said in 1:2. If they're all saved regardless, then why write a book, why spread the gospel, why why why?

Earlier it was mentioned that following God is like disrespecting the cross. No, it's the opposite. Not obeying Jesus is like slapping Him in the face and disregarding all he has done.

How can you tell who is a Christian? The Bible says by their fruit which is very similar to works. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Maybe my opinion will give you something to consider or maybe not. I did spend a long time sharing all this to you specifically in brotherly love. I think God really absolutely hates sin, and sin is NOT allowed in heaven and most people will go to hell, including disobedient Christians as it warns against in Matthew 7:21. Most of Jesus's parables are warnings which include to Christians, most of the teachings are to Christians, this is a big deal and not something to be taken lightly. Many will be deceived and will choose not believe the Bible. God bless...

were are the God fearing people, can we hear the voice our God calling us action, come and let us take back that which is stolen from us, in Jesus name we can.

Hi Chris,

part 3:

> if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place

This seems like a tough position to take, because it appears to contradict itself at every angle. For example: what/who is a Christian, to you? Can you give a precise and reliable definition of a Christian?

What if someone you believe is a Christian who meets the criteria you believed was set for one later turned out to turn away from Christ and continue in willful sin as it says in Hebrews 10:26 then you say they were never a Christian in the first place, but why weren't they? I know of Christians who are husbands, dads, pastors, youth ministers, worship leaders, who have each turned from Christianity. There's even a forum online for ex-Christians who have left the faith. So, you say they never were Christian in the first place even after all they did as Christians. So, does that mean someone who only responds to an altar call and prays and gives their heart to Jesus isn't Christian either? What exactly is a Christian?

Even angels in heaven (they're already in heaven) have freewill to sin and turn from God. If even angels have freewill while in heaven, of course mankind does on Earth when God specifically gave mankind the freedom to choose good or evil, to choose love or hate. We're not robots. Just like if you're a dad it's more meaningful if your son/daughter voluntarily says 'I love you', God gave us freewill to choose if we want to be with him or not, to love Him or not, to obey Him or not. It's our choice and we'll also be judged. I suppose if you believe you "can't" sin that doesn't jibe with judgment day either. If we're already saved, what's the point of being judged for our actions?

Secondly, it sounds like you don't believe Christians have freewill if you they can't sin. To say we don't have freewill is to contradict other verses.

Repent: The meaning for those with eyes to see and ears to hear:

Acts 3:19 REPENT Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your SINS sins may be blotted out, (change your mind on SIN)

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of SINS sins,

Acts 8:22 REPENT Repent therefore of this thy WICKEDNESS wickedness,

2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not REPENT repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. ( repent uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness )

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to REPENT repent of her FORNICATION fornication; and she repented not.

(IS FORNICATION A SIN OR A CHANGE OF MIND?)

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit ADULTERY adultery with her into great tribulation, except they REPENT repent of their DEEDS deeds.

Revelation 9:21 Neither REPENTED repented they of their MURDERS murders, nor of their SORCERIES sorceries, nor of their FORNICATION fornication, nor of their THEFTS thefts.