Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2503

Part 2:

The second observation is your quote:

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation;

The first part is a scripture Romans 6:2, but your 2nd sentence is not in the Bible. It does not say that after Romans 6:2 and I don't believe a Christian sinning is impossible. Even Paul admits to sin and all Christians sin, so to claim Christians can't sin seems inconsistent with the Bible. Here are a few examples:

-Much of Jesus's teachings were to his existing followers, including many warnings to not go astray and to 'do things'. If all his Christian followers were already saved then why would Jesus ask them to keep doing things? Why change at all? Why even preach the gospel? Why have a Bible? Why try? I have never heard anyone who believes OSAS have a clear answer for this. If Christians don't need to avoid sin because they're saved regardless why would anything in the Bible even matter? It does matter, because the Bible clearly says obeying God is important. If you don't obey then you don't love Jesus and aren't following Jesus much.

-Most of Jesus's parables were about how most people will go to hell and how to avoid it. Jesus called people to put forth effort, to change, to take action. If taking action wasn't important or even related to salvation then why would Jesus keep saying it was like in Matthew 7:21? This verse would have to be reinterpreted, discredited, or thrown out to believe that obeying God is bad. Is God likely to say that obeying him is bad or is satan more likely to say that?

-Judas was a Christian and he betrayed Jesus and died a horrible death and likely went to hell.

-People are given freewill. We're not robots. The Bible already says all sin. Anyone claiming Christians can't sin is claiming we don't have freewill. Hebrews 10:26.

I don't think there are Apostles today , but we do have their writings , the New Testament.

It was said that the faith was already given once in Jude . And contend for it , no need for Apostles or a new doctrine either . We have it in the NT completely.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing your explanation. I know you won't change your position and I certainly won't change mine. Each time I read through the Bible my position is only reinforced and each time I pray and ask God to reveal the truth and wisdom in understanding it seems confirmed. So, discussing further isn't likely to bear any fruit. I'm just curious why some passionately spread such an opinion, however, because the risk/reward doesn't seem to balance out. I believe Satan likes deceiving people as he is the great deceiver and liar. He even works to attack Christians' beliefs but they aren't aware of it. So, if there's 2 very different beliefs about salvation, one of them is true and one is false. If satan were to deceive one person into believing a lie, which is more likely: 1) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into being more obedient to God than they actually need to? or 2) that satan would go around trying to deceive Christians into disobeying God, despite scripture like John 14:15?

I agree with Paul 100% and I believe the Bible does not contradict itself.

It is true a woman should not teach out of her womanhood or femininity. When she teaches, she is preaching/teaching not as a woman but as a member of the body of Christ, one together with other men and women. The womanhood in her should keep silent in church and be subject to her husband but the new creature in her cannot certainly be forbidden to speak the Word. In any case it was women who brought the first news of the resurrection and it was a woman (Anna) who blessed the then baby Jesus, speaking in the temple (the church). Was it not a woman who preached to the whole city and brought the whole of Samaria to Christ in John chapter 4? They later graduated in their belief (v42), after they had come to hear of the Lord first hand but their first instance of belief (v39) was at the testimony of the woman! Yes women were considered property in the Jewish traditions but now Christ has come to redeem them that are under the legalistic tendencies and nitty-gritties of the law that we might receive the adoption of sons and now we are all sons of God by faith!

It would be foolish to be legalistic and petty by clinging to do's and don'ts in taking this verse at its literal value; any saved Spirit filled, baptized believer can speak in church for there is neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ Jesus!

3:23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

3:24. Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 15:10

Chris. Still on Page 3. You say that after the Fall "the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted". I am certain you don't believe that. You just haven't examined the thought. What does the Bible say about God and His Purpose? It specifically says it cannot be thwarted. The Purpose of God will stand.

Isaiah 14:24, 26-27 - The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand. This the plan devised for the whole earth, and this is the hand stretched out over all the nations. The LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who can thwart Him? His hand is outstretched, so who can turn it back?

Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Isaiah 46:9-11 - Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I distinguish the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come, saying: 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.

Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago; they came out of My mouth and I proclaimed them.

Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.

Acts 4:28 - They carried out what Your hand and purpose had decided beforehand would happen.

Daniel 4:35 - All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"

The confidence we have is that God is trustworthy. He is not fickle. If God says we will be eternally perfect, we will be. If God had created Adam and Eve perfect, they would have been. And neither they, nor the devil would have rebelled against God.

Page 3.

So, in essence, it encompasses all the Law & much, much more, as the Spirit calls for that 'higher level of spiritual living & obedience' that the Law could never give & the Jew could never perform. Does all this then give the possibility of believers becoming 'slack' in their faith, believing that, e.g. "I can steal (or, whatever sin), because the Spirit hasn't convicted me or shown me otherwise"? "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Impossible, the Spirit could never allow for such an attitude or interpretation; if the 'Christian' persists in wilful sin, then he hasn't been saved in the first place (this is of course, references our other discussion on a believer's Eternal Security). I'll leave it here: my 'short' explanation has turned out otherwise.

The Lord be with your spirit Adam.

Page 2.

And in the case of observance of the Sabbath (which is the commandment that is somewhat extraordinary in the list of commands given, as it is specifically incumbent upon Israel), the keeping of it is mandatory, if the believer is to be totally obedient to all of God's Laws. Hence, 'Sabbath keepers', & all who adhere to obedience to the Ten Commandments are constrained to keep the Sabbath as Holy, without exception. Conversely, those in my understanding, who refuse to keep that Sabbath Law because of reasons cited, would also be hypocritical if they kept the other 'Nine" & left out the 'One'.

So where does this leave us. As far as your understanding & performance of your faith is concerned, I cannot be in a position to answer. But in my understanding & vehement belief, that since God's Salvation through His Son, is only by His Grace & through our Faith in response (& even this Faith is His Gift to us), then obedience to His 'written' Laws not only leads one to knowledge of his own failure to keep them & resultant 'death', but also remains totally incompatible to the Law of Grace as the two are attempted to fusion. What then is the Law of Grace = Law of (Christ's) Spirit? It is the Whole Law of God, not bound by the Ten Commandments & rigid obedience to it which only led to death, but that which is written in our hearts & interpreted for us by His Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death". (onto Page 3).

Jonah 3:10

The entire nation of Nineveh repented: from the king down to the animals. Sack cloth, ashes and total fast, for all.

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The one instance of God repenting.

Galatians 5:22 The Fruit of the Holy Spirit:

Love

Joy

Peace

Long suffering

Gentleness

Goodness

Meekness

Temperance

Comforter

Teacher

Against such there is no law. // let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

I see nothing profitable in hitting the sheep with a pole. The shepherds crook is pull them back from danger.

What would the Holy Spirit do?

Jesus said to Peter: feed my sheep; 3 times.

Intercessory prayer is for His flock.

Standing in the gap, is for carrying lambs.

Page 1.

Adam, again, thank you for your comments & as it is now comes more directly to me, I will explain further.

A typical scenario, if I may: a sinner has come to/drawn to God through His Son, for salvation & is now a Christian; that is, the salvation given, is all of Grace & Grace alone. That believer then believes, or is led to believe, that he must needs follow God's Laws as declared in the Ten Commandments, as given to Israel/Jews (or any other Law he finds applicable) to be obedient to God, to maintain his acceptability to God, or at least, prove to his himself that he is a believer. This belief could also be found in, for example, a person's view of Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper, which are totally symbolic for the believers' benefit, but can erroneously be believed that since these ordinances have been completed/being done, he has done the right thing & therefore maintains his acceptability to God: in other words, done with a view of 'works'.

Back to my scenario: this Christian maintains obedience to the Ten Commandments & is now trusting in both Christ's Sacrifice & obedience to God's Laws to secure & maintain salvation. And this is evident, in that obedience to God's Laws is mandatory to a sinner being saved. It is this belief & action that I say, cannot work, as Salvation by faith & a strict obedience to a set of Laws to under gird that salvation are not only in conflict, but undermines the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Salvation is by Grace & nothing else, even to the keeping of the Ordinances, or good works, or obedience to a set of Laws; otherwise it is not of Grace but of Works. I have specifically avoided supplying Bible references here, as they have been quoted in my other comments earlier.

(onto Page 2).

Abominations are leprosy, crab, lobster, catfish, things in the water without fins and scales , women in pants men dresses, yellow hair, sodomy, swine, malice, wrath, certain bug eating snakes , lizards ,certain like eagles vulture birds of prey turtle

Chris, Page 3. If God intended to create a perfect world, what happened? You say He knew man would fail. If while knowing man would fail, God created a world that allowed man to fail, was His intent to create a perfect world? Or was God caught by surprise? If God's intent was perfection, why did He plant a bad Tree in the middle of the Garden? Why did He send Satan to the earth and placed him right smack in the middle of the Garden? Or was God not aware that by placing Satan in the Garden, he would tempt Adam and Eve and cause them to disobey God?

Can a perfect God fail? Is it possible for perfection to decay? If it was God's intent to make man perfect, why didn't He give man perfect wisdom and common sense? Can a perfect being be deceived? Can a perfect God be deceived? Were the Angels created perfect? Was the universe created perfect? Do perfect things corrupt?

My conclusion, based on verses previously noted, is that God did not create a perfect world. He created an existence perfectly suited for His Purpose in Christ, who created everything that exists so He could enter His creation to make it perfect. Man was not perfect, because he could die. Were that not the case, the Tree of Life would have been meaningless. He was not perfect because he could fail. He wasn't perfect because God created him so Christ could enter creation and die. If men could not die, the Plan to have Christ born to die would have been a contradiction. Man had to die, so Jesus could die. Remember, the Plan for Christ to redeem mankind and all creation, through death, was completed before the Fall. Recall the story of Jacob and Esau.

Death is the result of corruption. Whether Adam corrupted instantly or over time, is inconsecuential. Wether the devil corrupted instantly is also inconsequential. The fact is that they were capable of being corrupted. That makes them not perfect. In the perfect world to come, there will be no decay. All things will last forever incorruptible.

Chris, on to Page 3. The future does not exist. There can be no such thing as a future we can look into and determine what is going to happen. Isaiah 48 is clear on that. However, there appear to be certain things written in what Daniel 10:21 refers to as the Book of Truth, that give us a glimpse of things that God has determined will take place.

The Future as an observable entity one can observe or even travel into is a logical contradiction and practical impossibility. If there were such a thing as a Future God could be aware of, outside of Himself, then God would be subject to whatever is set in that Future. That is, if God is aware of events outside of Himself, that will take place, then He is bound by that knowledge and can't act to change what He knows to be true. God would therefore, not be free. The Future would determine what He does, given that what He knows about what will happen as fact, must happen. Let me explain. If God knows, through intuition, knowledge, vision, prescience or because He is all-knowing, then what He knows to be the fact, must in fact happen. Otherwise, He would be wrong about what He understood or the Future would not be certain.

If the Future God knows is not certain, then what God knows, is questionable. But if what He knows about the Future is in fact true, then God is locked into behaving as the Future reveals and incapable of changing it. Example: Jesus knows the Temple will be torn down at a specific time in the future. If the Temple is not torn down at that time, then Jesus was wrong about what He knew about future events. In other words, what Jesus knows about the future, has to take place. Otherwise, He doesn't know the future.

Therefore, we have to conclude that if God tells us something that will happen, it is not because He has some insight into the future. It has to be because He specifically planned and set it up that way. God cannot be a prisoner of the future. He has to be logically able to act freely.

Amen brother, well said! I believe it's the same as it always has been for believers/saints - Jesus gives us the ability to suffer for his name. We cannot do it without his strength and grace. But with Christ we can do and endure all the things that were impossible for us before. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." - Philippians 4:12

Hi brother, Greetings to you!

This is with regards to your comment on the Sabbath. Right from the creation, God has set apart one day as the Holy Day, A day of rest. He sanctified the Sabbath day, which is the seventh day of the week and not any other day or all the days of the week. We can also see from the commandments written by God Himself to Remember to keep the Sabbath Day Holy; Six days you shall work but the Seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God( Exodus 20:8-11); It is a covenant sign between God and His Children( Ezekiel 20:20).

However, most of our Fellow Christian friends worship God on the first day of the week, which is merely man made and that day has neither been considered as a day to worship nor God has changed the day of worship from Saturday, the 7th day of the week to Sunday, the first day of the week.

Jesus, while He lived on this earth, kept the Sabbath and went to the church on Sabbath days as His custom was( Luke 4:16). Jesus even said, in Matthew 5:17 that He has not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill. Jesus also said, if you love Me, keep My commandments( John 14:15). So, its very plain and simple, if you love Jesus, Keep His commandments.

As we live in the last days, there is going to be a time where we all are going to face a testing time with regards to the day of worship. All the end time prophecies as mentioned in the book of Revelation are fulfilling and soon, Sunday law is going to be enforced globally. The Question is whether we are obedient to God's law by observing the Bible Sabbath or following the man made commandments( Revelation 14:12) These are explained definitely not to scare anyone; but the Scripture says, Whoever obeys His words are going to receive the seal of God and the others the mark of the Beast.

The beautiful part is, we are going to observe Sabbaths in Heaven as well!( Isaiah 66:23). So, why don't we start right here on earth! May the Holy Spirit lead you to His truth. Amen.

Chris, again you ask, "God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption, so His Christ could fulfill His Plan for removing that corruption"?

Again the answer is, 'somewhat'. The Bible says Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, evil and corruption. The Bible also says that was God's Plan before time even began ( Titus 1:2). If God planned the eradication of corruption (sin, evil, death, decay, pain, suffering), before any of it existed, then God created, in part to remove corruption from created things.

If we can apply Daniel 9:24 to Christ, we can conclude that Christ came to get rid of corruption and establish eternal perfection. Throughout Scripture we see that God's purpose is to put an end to corruption (wickedness, evil). The hope of the Christian is that we will live in eternal incorruptibility ( 1 Cor 15:53).

So, to accomplish His purpose of a perfect existence, God had to create the imperfect creation that exists. God not only understood, in His wisdom and infinite knowledge, that corruption would affect creation, He planned for it. I repeat my previous assertion that, corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. Were that not true, God would not have created an existence susceptible to corruption. Why would He? Consequently, He had to create the existence He created and make arrangements to make it perfect. To achieve perfection, all we have experienced had to happen.

It was because of that, that God ceased His creative work on the 7th Day. God stopped creating, because He created with a Purpose. There isn't anything in the Bible that even suggests God created mankind for mankind's own sake. The only thing I see we are left with, is that God created for Christ to put an end to corruption in creation. As we can see from Hebrews 3-4, we are still in the 7th Day of God's rest. That's to say, God did not resume creating things the morning after the 7th Day. And God won't resume creating until Christ returns.

1st Corinthians 6:9 311 know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived neither fornicators nor adulterers nor idolaters or a feminine or abusers of themselves with mankind Northeast nor Covetous nor drunkards nor revilers North storage nurse shall inherit the kingdom of God and such were some of you but you are washed but you are Sanctified but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God. You see bob that the blood of Christ washes away all the sin of the Believers so when God sees the believer he sees perfection it's clear that we were all of those things before we trust in Christ as our savior the only difference is we are washed sanctified and purified in the blood of Christ it's his blood that washes us not our Behavior Romans 4:8 blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against him ! did the dying Thief repent of sin? or did he believe on the Lord? Meaning he changed his mind about Christ and believe that he was truly the Lord and that Jesus could save him and Jesus did indeed save him saying today you will be with me in Paradise he had no time to repent of sin or get baptized he was dying on the cross with Jesus and Jesus required nothing of him but simple belief.

All the Jews believed the resurrection OF the dead. However, it was the resurrection FROM the dead which proved Christ as the Son of God. And without this resurrection, our faith in Christ would be in vain 1Cor 15:12-19.

I think what you need to do Bob is prove to everyone that repent means to turn from sin because it doesn't it means to change your mind God changed his mind many times and in order for anyone to be saved they have to change their minds and if you had to turn from sin to be saved you become the savior and therefore you're not going to be saved Romans 11:6 and if by Grace then it is no more of Works otherwise Grace is no more Grace but if it be of works and it is no more grace otherwise work is no more work Ephesians 2:8 and 9 for by grace are you saved through faith it is not of yourselves as gift of God not of Works lest any man should boast 1st John 1:8 if we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in US

You ask, "Did God create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty?"

My response is No. Keep in mind the Angels also sinned. Why didn't God save the Angels? Why create man so Christ could enter creation to save men? For whatever reason, Christ created man and entered the world as a man, to vanquish the devil ( Heb 2:14). Wasn't there a better way? Obviously not.

Consequently, because God created an existence susceptible to corruption ( Rom 8), we have to conclude that He created it that way because it was an absolute necessity. It could not have been done any other way. So God could have created a different existence, if and only if it were not necessary to create it as He did. 1 Peter 1:11, "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?" Peter tells us that even the Angels wait anxiously for our redemption, because their salvation depends on our salvation.

The Bible is clear. Christ didn't just come to save mankind from its sin. He came to redeem all of creation from its corruption. It so happens, God had to do that, of necessity, through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ. See Heb 2:10-17, 1 Cor 2:7.

Rom 8:19-22, "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."

God did not cause anyone to sin or corrupt. For whatever reason unknown to us, corruption is present in creation. To achieve eternal perfection in things created, God Planned Christ ( Rev 21:4, Acts 13:37). Why things deteriorate is a mystery of the physical laws of the material universe and the angelic realm.

Everything in Scripture, from Genesis 1-3:15 to Revelation 22 is about Christ. Everything points to Christ. God said in Isaiah 46:10 that His Purpose would stand. And in 14:24, "The LORD of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand."

If Christ was not the purpose of creation and all things were not created for His incarnation, death and resurrection, as stated in Col 1:16, Rom 11:36 and Heb 10:5, what was the purpose of creation? The entire Bible is dedicated to Christ and 2Tim 1:9 tells us it was "by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal."

I would argue that if the Plan of Salvation was drawn up before the Fall, in fact, before time/space, then creation had to have been for and about Christ. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to vanquish death, to redeem His creation and to establish eternal perfection.

So, if God knew man would fail, before He even created man, why did He create man and why send Christ to redeem him? Why not just create people that would not sin? After all, isn't that what we are promised in Heaven? Isn't the promise, abundant life for all eternity, where neither sin nor moth corrupt? Why did God subject all of creation to all this trouble ( Rom 8) just to get to perfection and a sinless eternity?

The argument is, man has free will and s/he can't have free will unless they have the ability or possibility to rebel, disobey, sin. But if that is the case, will we have free will in Heaven? And if we do, will anyone rebel? And if we have free will, why do we pray, Your Will Be Done? Why would God create a being with free will, then ask him to relinquish it? Why not create a being like those that will exist in eternity?

The fact is all creation was subjected to suffering, because it was necessary ( Rom 8). Just as necessary will be the release of Satan after his 1,000 incarceration ( Rev 20:7). Why? All things are for Christ ( Col 1:16).

this verse is the precept for colosians 2 verse 16 shalom

the precept of this verse can be found at Ezekiel chapter 45 verse 16 and 17 paul was referring to atonement and how Christ body superceeds animal sacrifice shalom

So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.

If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.

What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.

Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.

the great multitude are the explained in Isaiah 11 :11...shalom

Wondering if any one payed attention to MATTHEW 7:26?

Mothers Day today. First time I've looked at these prayer requests. My daughter on my mind, I was thinking of her and scrolling through these requests and then...I saw her name..Karissa.

Your request is what I pray for her everyday. Her Salvation. Also many other things I pray for her. I will pray for you too. I'll also pray for your Mom. I just hope you both either are, or get in a Bible believing Baptist Church. Salvation is free to those who ask God to forgive them and save the their souls. If you want to live for Him and serve Him, it won't be hard to do. Just give your life to Him. I was a depressed person too, but God changed my sad life. I truly didn't understand why I was living except for being a Mom to my only child, my daughter Karissa. I don't ever see or talk to her. She wants nothing to do with me because I Live for God. She is almost 21 and she broke my heart 6 years ago. I'm so glad you have your Mom. She is so blessed. If you are not in a Bible believing Church, start by going, and be faithful in attendance. You will get past your depression if you have God in your life. Yes, you will get sad sometimes, but you won't have depression like you do. Life is so good with God in it. I'll pray for you Karissa. Dont you give up!

Chris, on Page 1 & 2. Thank you for your response and for continuing the conversation. I like controversy and ambiguity in a discussion, because it allows you to explore further and examine yourself and the substance of your beliefs.

That said, you have correctly outlined my points in page 1. They are, as you summarized:

1. All things have been created for Christ

2. The Future does not exist

3. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose

4. We are not the object of creation, Christ is

5. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation

6. God created to eradicate corruption

In Page 2 you ask and I cite some Scriptures:

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

In Ephesians 3:10-11 Paul opens a window so we can get a glimpse of why God created mankind. It was to make the Wisdom of God known to "the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". That is a lot to absorb. And how was that Purpose accomplished? Through Christ. In 1Cor 4:9, 15:50f, 1Pet 1:12 we see that our human existence is only part of what comprises the Mystery of God's Purpose, which includes more than just us. Nevertheless, everything hinges on humanity. So, for the Purpose of God concerning all of creation, Christ came into the world. There is a war raging in the spiritual realm, we know nothing about.

I'll try to address your questions A-E in the next post. They are complex and not easy to answer. But I will try. What I want everyone to keep in mind is, as Rom 11:36 says, all things were created 'from him and through him and for him are all things'.

What nation is referred to as "The land beyond Ethiopia" in Isaiah Chapter 18?

This is the barley harvest after the first fruits are sealed the faithful church in Revelation 3:10 and the church that is watching and praying they are worthy to escape these things in Luke 21:36 it is the rapture but not like you have been taught it's not the trumpet sounding and the dead in Christ rising in 2 thess that happens at wheat harvest which is at the last trumpet the 7th trumpet in Revelation which the barley wheat and first fruits will also be apart of the grape harvest comes later with those who didn't take the mark are raised to life again to rule and reign with us a 1000 years there are 3 harvests after the first fruits 144000 are sealed so it's the rapture of the faithful church that is watching and worthy to escape the 7 trumpets it's the barley harvest