Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 321

One other thing I would like to address.

I don't believe God gives the ability to one to respond to the Gospel without his foreknowledge.

God knows who is going to come to him.

To believe you can baptize an infant so he can receive salvation later is no different than paying a down-payment on it.

God judges our motives and he shares his glory with no man.

God bless.

Irenaeus And Infant Baptism

Part 5.

It's significant that Paul Owen has to rely on such speculative reasoning in order to argue for infant baptism in the earliest centuries. It's not as if baptism and the issues related to it aren't discussed much in the earliest sources. They're discussed often in the gospels, Acts, the writings of Paul, The Didache, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, etc. Yet, the first explicit reference to the concept of infant baptism is found in Tertullian, who is writing against it.

It's also significant that Paul has so far chosen to ignore large portions of the evidence I've cited, including my citation of David Wright and his discussion of the conclusions of modern scholarship. Even in discussing the little evidence he's addressed so far, Paul has made some comments that aren't consistent with his original article. He claims that Tertullian and others who didn't want to baptize infants differed from Baptists in their motivations. But they wouldn't have to have all of the same motives as Baptists in order to be inconsistent with Paul's concept of the catholicity of infant baptism.

I wanted to post this earlier but couldn't get away from work.

It's very hard to get anything definite when researching the early church.

We have to go with what is in front of us as they did and that's the written word.

I also believe in a certain age of accountability and that differ between individuals.

The reason for such a thing as an age of accountability is because one would have to have a clear and mature understanding of they have a sin nature that is incurable. And that we are in need of a savior and you can not add to the grace provided.

So, in doing so a child should feel the need to repent.

If there is a 5 year old child that can understand and make the decision for salvation then there is also a 5 year old child that can go to hell.

God bless and good night for now.

Irenaeus And Infant Baptism.

Part 4.

Paul also cites the following from Irenaeus:

"'And dipped himself,' says the Scripture, 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" (Fragments, 34)

If Paul only intends this passage as another example of Irenaeus' belief in baptismal regeneration, then I have no objection. However, if Paul is suggesting that the reference to "new-born babes" is about infant baptism, then I reject that suggestion. Irenaeus is addressing Christians in general. Christians are born again. Regeneration is like becoming a spiritual infant, being born spiritually. This passage says nothing about infant baptism.

Nothing Paul Owen has cited from Irenaeus leads to the conclusion that he believed in infant baptism. To the contrary, it appears that Irenaeus believed in universal infant salvation, like other church fathers of the second century. Thus, the concern some later fathers had for baptizing infants in order to ensure their salvation apparently wouldn't have been a concern to Irenaeus. And when we look at the many passages in Irenaeus that explicitly address baptism, the baptism of infants is never mentioned. So, Paul has attempted to arrive at a conclusion of infant baptism by an indirect means, but, as I've shown above, the argument is inconclusive. There's no logical requirement that infants be baptized in order to be regenerated, and there are passages in Irenaeus in which he discusses infant salvation without any involvement of baptism.

See Part 5.

Irenaeus And Infant Baptism.

Part 3.

But we can take this a step further. Irenaeus is one of the fathers who commented on the issue of infant salvation, so we can examine those passages to see if he mentions infant baptism as part of the process. Irenaeus writes:

"And again, who are they that have been saved and received the inheritance? Those, doubtless, who do believe God, and who have continued in His love; as did Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, and innocent children, who have had no sense of evil." (Against Heresies, 4:28:3)

And elsewhere, concerning the Slaughter of the Innocents:

"For this cause, too, He suddenly removed those children belonging to the house of David, whose happy lot it was to have been born at that time, that He might send them on before into His kingdom; He, since He was Himself an infant, so arranging it that human infants should be martyrs, slain, according to the Scriptures, for the sake of Christ, who was born in Bethlehem of Judah, in the city of David." (Against Heresies, 3:16:4)

Irenaeus doesn't limit his comments in the first passage to children of believers, he says nothing of baptism, and he says nothing of the Bethlehem children being saved only because they had been circumcised. It seems that Irenaeus believed that all children who die in infancy are saved because of "innocence". There's no need to assume infant baptism in order to explain why Irenaeus would refer to Christ regenerating infants.

See Part 4.

Irenaeus And Infant Baptism.

Part 2.

In the first passage Paul cites, Irenaeus is addressing the claim that Jesus' public ministry lasted for only one year. This is from the well known section in Irenaeus where he incorrectly asserts that Jesus lived to be over 40 years old. Irenaeus is explaining that Jesus lived through every stage of life, including old age, which would result in His public ministry having lasted more than one year. Jesus experienced every stage of life, from infancy to old age, in order to save people from all age groups. The immediate context says nothing of the baptism of these people. Paul includes baptism by means of combining this passage in Irenaeus with what Irenaeus says elsewhere about baptism. But there's an assumption he's making in combining the two.

Would a belief in baptismal regeneration as normative require that every person regenerated is regenerated through baptism? No, advocates of baptismal regeneration will acknowledge some exceptions, such as the thief on the cross. Paul's assumption that Irenaeus believed that infants are born again through infant baptism is therefore possible, but unproven, at this point in the argument. Hendrick Stander and Johannes Louw explain:

"It is rather pretentious to insist on substituting the notion of baptism every time a writer uses the term 'regeneration' unless the context clearly relates to baptism as such....[this passage in Irenaeus] merely tells us that the redeeming work of Christ extends to whatever person....The passage does not speak about the age when people were baptized." (Baptism In The Early Church [Webster, New York: Carey Publications, 2004], pp. 53, 55)

See Part 3.

Irenaeus And Infant Baptism.

Part 1.

Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Paul Owen posted an article today arguing that the second century church father Irenaeus believed in infant baptism. None of the passages Paul cites refer to infant baptism, but Paul assumes that the practice is implied. In past responses to Paul, I've given some examples of Christians of the patristic era opposing his claims about infant baptism, and I've cited the patristic scholar David Wright commenting on the subject. Even if Irenaeus had believed in infant baptism, Paul's original assertions would still be false. But does the evidence suggest that Irenaeus believed in infant baptism?

Paul writes:

"In his treatise Against Heresies (II.22.4) he [Irenaeus] writes: 'He came to save all through means of Himself-all, I say, who through Him are born again to God-infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men.' Irenaeus clearly believed that 'infants' in the Church were 'born again' to God, the same as children, youths and adults."

And:

"Like all other Catholic Christians, he believed that the new birth was received through water baptism: 'And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost' (Against Heresies, III.17.1). Cf. also Irenaeus: 'As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes' (cited by J. Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), p. 164)."

See part 2.

Dear Ronald will pray for Nathan. Thanks for letting us know.

The source of persecution: Satan and his minions

Sometimes; in my experience I don't know which is worse; the inevitable struggle with difficulties daily; or the annoying knowledge that the enemy is using the same old tactic over and over and over again and how predictable it tends to be.

That may be reflecting badly on my own weaknesses that are causing me to struggle more than I should; so I can't speak

for everyone else here; nonetheless I have a strong suspicion that someone here can relate to that observation.

People wildly shouting or shooting off fireworks when we are trying to sleep; neighbors having conflicts; problems with relatives; and other chaos in our lives may not appear to be persecution in one sense but the enemy as I like to call him is an "equal opportunity destroyer". Having any confidence at all in today's society especially that there can be some solace in anything going on in this life tends to be fruitless. Again; I may be biased having to live alone for years after my spouse had an affair and I had to divorce; feeling that I was missing out on what normal families experience. It is easy to harbor bitterness; but I can say that first the Lord has His reasoning and certainly has matured me in the last 10 years; and also that my ex wife has lost out on what the Lord had purposed for our marriage in the first place; as well as opportunities for us to grow and have an influence on others in witnessing to others. I thought I would mention this once again; briefly since many have their biggest struggles at home. Probably would be better to address seperately as to verses to maintain a strong marriage although I feel I am not the best person to discuss it with my own failures. Nonetheless; Satan's attempt to affect me with uncontrollable anger has been dealt with through Biblical counselling in the book of James and much prayer about 5 or 6 years ago and I would recommend that others would avail sound counselling in the church.

What is persecution?

Hebrews 11:37

They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-

Other parts of this passage mention torture and wandering as nomads. It is fairly clear that when people are put to severe physical suffering and or death directly because of their profession of faith that persecution is occurring. When we look to the individuals who are exiled or made homeless because of either being directly evicted or put in a position of poverty because of their faith (even related to a caste system so encompassing anyone not in the elite status) it can be less clear. Some of this seems like "collateral damage"; and if we look at more subtle things such as verbal abuse and harassment on the job it may be even less clear. No doubt having a work ethic to work "heartily unto the Lord" (Coossians 3:23); to work as unto the Lord and to be above reproach thus not agreeing to use illegal means to promote the econonic status also can have fallout. Of course we must be diligent not to be robbing from our employer's time in having conversations that cause us to deviate from the work at hand; such much normally be reserved for break or after work hours; although there are times when in my own situation I have had to emphasize that I'd better clock out when being alone with one individual on my past job discussing theology. A lot; of course would depend on how complex the task is; there have been one or two times I can think of specifically when working in a warehouse; for instance when the whole production line jammed and there was literally nothing else to do at that time but usually there is some mundane task we can do to fill in for these moments.

Jesus promised that all who were Godly in Christ Jesus would be persecuted ( 2 Tim. 3:12; John 15:20). The origin and SOURCE of this situation is nearly always Satan's minions.

Hey Jaz,

Thank you, Jesus shamed the leaders of Jerusalem about traditions, Matthew 15:3 and we are told in Colossians 2:8. My understanding is when we believe in our heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation we are justified by God's grace, Romans 3:24 and being baptized is being obedient to God's word, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: We then start the road to sanctification by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.

Jesus Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation and all we do we do in is name including being baptized, Colossians 3:17. He paid the penalty that our sins deserved by His sacrificial death on the cross. His death satisfied God's justice and turned away His wrath from us. God calls us but we must answer we must believe and be obedient to Him to be chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27. Being baptized is obedience, Ephesians 2:10 2 Thessalonians 1:8, every believer who has opportunity will be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the result of salvation, not the means to it.

Our obedience strengthens our faith, obedience shows our love for God, and our obedience to God's word is essential and it is not works. Those who are obedient are imitators of Christ and are willingly submitting to the authority, His will, and the word of God.

God bless,

RLW

Hello, Giannis,

I do think that the Lord's Supper is open to all who have a professing faith in Jesus, are old enough to attest to this faith, and who live a life that is turned towards God and his ways. This does not mean that one needs to be sinless in one's life, but one who confesses their sin and seeks forgiveness and hates that they have sinned. This person should partake of the Lord's Supper because it is an "Encapsulated gospel" sign. It is the acceptance and celebration of the New Covenant of the shed blood and broken body of Jesus unto death for our sins. So, those who acknowledge that this is true and for them can partake of the Communion. Those who don't should be excluded.

As to your son's waywardness, like my own sons, I pray for them to return to Jesus in faith as you are praying for your son. I know that God loves our sons and yours more than we ever could and that He is able to work in their lives 24/7 and we cannot.

So, as parents, it is painful when we see our kids turn from the Lord and walk in the ways of the world, especially when they once embraced the Lord as children and teens. In today's church society, this is all too common. I wish the church was more effective in helping children of believers continue to keep the faith as they become adults. Our society is so different than when I grew up in the 60's and 70's when there was much more people of faith surrounding us in our neighborhoods and schools. But even then, many who grew up in church did not continue. I do not know what the answer is to this problematic trend, but I do desire to be persistent in prayer to those I know who have gone wayward like my own sons.

God is so good and knows our sons through ad through. I ask Him to enlighten their hearts again with the gospel and shed His grace upon their souls. I will keep your son in my prayers, too.

Also Jaz, I do not believe that one s saved by baptism. I believe that the elect will be regenerated by God and enabled to believe, and they will put their faith in Jesus either right away or sometime in their life at the time appointed by God.

If I had them baptized as infants, I would have done so by faith that God had or would regenerate them according to His election (that no one truly knows the eternal will of God) and I would bring them up in the faith as I did when they were not baptized, being sure that they heard the gospel. I believe. whether they were baptized as infants or by their choice, that the gospel presented is the power of God unto salvation. So, God would use the hearing of the gospel message to bring them to faith in Jesus.

Hello Jaz, We did not have our sons baptized as infants. We thought that they would choose to be baptized sometime in their childhood/teen years by their own choice since we were bringing them up in the faith and in a church environment. But they did not choose that as of yet. I continue to pray for them to return to the faith they had in Jesus as children and young teens/

GiGi, part 2

Question. Can an infant take part in Lord's Supper? It is not possible, is it? When they grow and become children, can they take part? Assuming that they haven't given their heart to Jesus, can they still have Holly Communion? In 1 Corinthians it says that if one participates in Lord's Supper and have unrepentant sins then they are judged. So you see that also practical issues emmerge with baby baptism. It is not the baptism that protects our children. It is our prayers and teachings. As you said the children of the saints are holy. My son was born in the faith, he was actually a present from God to my wife, He attended the church untill he was about 14, he was regenerated and was baptized in the Spirit but not in water. God's grace was surely upon him. And then he made his revolution and abandoned the faith. But I see that he still has brakes in his brains. He knows God and his commandments so he avoids doing sins (not fully but at least not the heavy ones) and stlll prays but he is also attracted to the world. We are prayind for him and we know that God protects him and eventually he will come back. But it is true that God allows people to be taught by life itself like the prodigal son. Some have to end up eating pig's food to wake up and return. So lets keep praying for our children They will definitely come back to the Lord sometime, sooner or later..

Blessings.

Hi Giannis,

I guess we differ on when regeneration happens. I believe one needs to be regenerated (which God does in one by grace alone) in which one is )given the capacity to believe. I believe that without God regenerating a person, that person cannot believe because they are dead in sin and depraved and not inclined to seek Him or obey Him.

As to the people you mentioned. It is true that ma y who have been baptized as infants fall away from their belief in the gospel which they have heard at least in the readings during church services. Just because someone has been baptized does not equate to them being regenerated. They are to separate works, one is what God (regenerate) and the other is what a person chooses (baptism). In churches that baptize infants, children, and adults it is common to speak the gospel over the person before they are baptized because it is the power of God for salvation ( Romans 1:16) and your quote from 1 Peter..

As parents we cannot know of God's work of regeneration in our children, whether they are baptized as infants or as older teens at that time. We will know by fruitful living over time that demonstrate this has occurred in the past. Baptism does not save a person, but it is a sign and a seal that places one into the body of believers. So Christian parents baptize infants and children because they are holy due to the believing faith of their parents and therefore covenantal members of God's people.

We cannot know if one is elect or not. That is God's determination. Churches are full of both those who are elect and those who are not. It can be hard to tell one from another.

And it is true that many who were baptized, whether as infants, children, teens or adults, who stray from faith in Jesus and live lives that are in opposition to God despite being baptized by their parents' choice or their own. This is quite evident. And as long as they are alive, there is still hope that they will come to Jesus in faith. So we pray.

Hello GiGi

Question. Is baptism any good if one does not believe in Jesus? I am living in a country where 95% of all the population have been baptized Greek Ortodox christians. It a custom and a trandition here. I believe in Italy and Spain a huge percentage of people have been baptized as Roman Catholic christians. So what? Is that any good? The prisons here are full of baptized people. People outside swear, steal, murder, rape, etc and they are all baptized when infants. Do they carry on them the grace of God? Has their baptism has done any good to them? I don't think so. They all know a few about Jesus and His life and teachings and that is all.

Can a person be regenerated as an infant? Lets leave it to the scripture to tell us. 1 Peter 2:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." Which is that incorruptible seed that the verse talks about? The answer is given in 1 Peter 24-25, "24 For all flesh is as grass, ...:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." It is the word of God, the gospel, that was preached to us.

In the parable of the Sower and the seed it is the seed that goes inside the good soil(all last 3 cases, never mind that some fall away afterwards). There is no other way. David and John the Baptist were people of the OT, that were never regenerated. Regeneration is not something that we do as people, it is something that God does. When? After we have heard the gospel and have believed and repented and decided to live a new holly life. So God regenerate us so that we become new people, and also become His children, and also through regeneration we are given His grace to obey His commandmenta and change our character in similarity to Jesus. Next step we are baptized, which means that we bury our old self and raise as new people to start a new life. This is how it goes.

I am offended when someone , anyone , rejects the teachings of God in favour of the teachings of men and then teaches others to do the same . I think we all need to spend more time with our Bibles and less time in the things that pertain to men .

May I ask you a personal question ? Of course you do not have to answer and I shan't be offended if you decline . Your own children , were they ' baptized ' as children ? If ' yes ' do you consider them all to be saved because of this infant baptism ? Even your son who converted to islam in order to marry a muslim lady ?

Amen to you Brother , Acts chapter 8 has been written and preserved by God for our understanding , in particular verse 37 . The traditions of men , however comforting they may seem to us with their smooth words , are to always be rejected but especially when they quite obviously contradict what is written in the Bible . The Bible which is the Word of God .

Ronald,

The Anabaptist rejection of infant baptism and insistence of believer's baptism as the only valid baptism is a TRADITION that began in the 1600's in Europe following the Reformation movements of the 1500's. Who are those who believe like the Anabaptists to say that infant baptism is a tradition of men? I could say that about the anabaptist position since it was not held by believers for 1600 years and there are early church leaders such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen who speak of baptizing infants as being normative in the church since the apostles. I would think that these people who were close in time to the apostles and apostolic church teaching and practice would better know what was true of the church in those first centuries than anyone else who lived in the last 400 years. There are two traditions here, the one of 1600 years of practice in the church (infant baptism) and the one of 400 recent years of the anabaptists. If you are going to speak ill of traditions, in all fairness you should recognize that your own anabaptist belief is just as much a tradition as my belief in the validity of infant baptism. Both are inferred from Scripture as to whether or not infants were baptized in the first century church as there is NOT any Scripture that explicitly speaks to this practice pro or against.

I am offended when people play the "tradition" card when speaking of beliefs that date back to the early church as opposed to beliefs that have arisen in recent centuries. Both are traditions or doctrines of the faith and neither is wrong or should be denigrated simply because someone thinks that traditions and doctrines automatically reflect unbiblical teachings.

I do not intend to be quarrelsome with you in this matter but it does bother me when someone uses the "tradition card" to be dismissive about a viewpoint that has long been considered to be orthodox (right belief) views.

That said, I wish to end this conversation with you for the sake of peace.

Part 2

My husband also was baptized as an infant, but his parents did not live their lives as believers. when we met, I shared Scripture with him and he returned to faith in Christ that He had believed and learned of in Sunday School and Confirmation.

When our children were born we opted not to baptize them in infancy because we were confident that they would choose to baptized at some point in their childhood or teen years. But they did not and still are not baptized nor walking in faith with God.

Now that I am in my 60's and my sons are grown, I have studied this topic of infant baptism over the past 3 decades and I have come full circle back to infant baptism as one valid option because I now understand regeneration better am convinced that Scripture says that the promise of salvation and the privilege of baptism is not only for adults, or parents, but for their children as Peter said in Acts 2:38-39 and understanding the covenant nature of God and His people and His consistent unchanging ways across history as Col.2:10-13 connects circumcision as the sign and seal of being brought into the covenant union of Israelites with God with how baptism does the same thing to believers and their children.

If I had to do it over again with my sons, I would have had them baptized as infants because I now understand how God works in the lives and hearts of the elect even in in utero or infancy and can regenerate His elect at any time He chooses. By faith, I believe He does so in children of believers and therefore, these children are holy and are to be brought into the covenant family by baptism as infants.

You may not agree with me on this, but that is fine with me. I have explained my understanding in the posts to Jones and to you and I stand by them s still, but I welcome to read the biblical reasons anabaptists use to see as valid only believer's baptism.

Dear Ronald,

I understand where you stand too on this.

I must say in response to your reference to my infant baptism, I truly cannot recall a time when I did not believe in Jesus, that He died for my sins, that He forgives me because of His love and sacrifice for me and have always walked by faith. I did not base my salvation on my parents at all. I was regenerated and given the power to believe by the Holy Spirit as early as I can remember. So, my baptism was valid as a witness to the reality of God's work of grace in me before I was baptized as an infant. You may not believe this to be true, but I do because I have walked with our Lord ALL of my life. My regeneration and salvation is not based on my faith or repentance, but wholly on God's grace bestowed on me as a holy child of believing parents, as the passage in 1 Cor. 7:14. It is not difficult for me to believe that God does regenerate fetuses, infants, and children just as He does adults. It is ALL a work of God, not because I have faith or repent. But I believe and repent because God regenerated me to be able to do these things with a heart that has been enlivened and made fit for relationship with Him only by His grace.

I know that people who came to faith as an teen or adult may have a hard time affirming this because their intellects were fully developed when they came to faith. But they, too, were regenerated before they believed, as well. Certainly God is able to do as He pleases in regenerating those elected to salvation at any time during their life-conception to death.

And some who have been raised with an anabaptist theology of baptism and salvation will have difficulty affirming my belief.

As for myself, I was baptized as an infant and raised by believing parents who placed the gospel before me from infancy. When I became an adult, I fellowshipped in pentacostal/charismatic churches that taught believers baptism and though that this made sense as one in my 20's and 30's. cont.

Hey GiGi,

I know how you feel about this, what I said is a baby cannot believe and accept Jesus as their savior. God in His plan has chosen and placed people in this world to do His will like John the Baptist and many others. God our Father's plan was before anything and as we are, it is June 2024 but to our Father, He is with us today and He is with us when all is made new.

I know you were baptized when you were an infant, can I say that is wrong? No. As one grows one must decide on their own to accept Jesus as their savior regardless of whether they were baptized when they were an infant on the faith of their parents, we must make that choice regardless of our parents.

God knows yesterday, today, and all the time to come, but we are told we must be obedient to our Father just like our Savior Jesus who was obedient unto His death. Salvation and our eternal life with God and our Savior Jesus start with our belief that Jesus is the Son of God who He sent to die for us and pay the price for sin so that we will have eternal life.

It is up to us not our parents. The traditions and doctrines of men will not give us eternal life, only the belief in Jesus the Son of God who God gave that we can be saved.

In Love God bless,

RLW

Hello Ronald,

Those who understand the gospel and believe should be baptized.

But to say that infants cannot receive regeneration through grace or be given faith is not something the Scriptures say explicitly yes of no. We do have the example of John the Baptist who leapt in mom's womb when Mary came to visit and John recognized the Savior in Mary's womb.

Another example is David who said that God taught him truth, wisdom and to lean on God while he was in the womb. Ps. 51:5; Ps 71:6 This shows that even though David was sinful even in the womb, David testified that God works grace in a fetus, therefore He can do so in a newborn infant, toddler, or child as He wills. It is reasonable to believe that God does work grace in the heart of infants even when they do not mentally understand, just like He did to those who as adults were dead in their sins and without God.

So, I believe the Scriptural directive to believe the gospel, repent of sin, and be baptized IS specifically for those who can understand their need to turn to God.

But I also believe that God said not to hinder children from coming to Him and that includes baptism for the chlldren of believers who are said by Paul to be holy (saints) already.

I think that Scriptures support both ways to come to baptism. Yet each postition concerning infant baptism comes by inference and not by explicit teaching or excluding infants because the passages concerning believing, repenting are directed at adults.

Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, has clearly stated that infant baptism was the practice of the church passed down from the apostles.

1 Corinthians 15:41 states: There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

This last passage could possibly be in reference to those who vanish in the Rapture as well. Food for thought....

In my series of 7 postings on what is about to come to pass; I alluded to the righteous shining like the sun from Daniel. In regard to our battles with the enemy; he both accuses us of our sins and works to convince us that we aren't able to ever be in good standing with the Lord. There is danger in both extremes; thinking we are blessed when we aren't even saved; and being convinced we are still in darkness because of besetting sins. Surely we must confess and not try to hide our sins if we want to be forgiven.

This righteousness is something which is to be experienced with a servant's heart. Christ of course was the only truly righteous man who ever existed consistently throughout His earthly ministry reflecting His Divinity. It is the Body of Christ which was the focus of His ministry; his life and death. As a Christian we should seek to keep the church pure and build one another up and display the love of Christ in fellowship and communication with one another as well as when sharing the Good News with others.

Sadly; there are some I have had experience with who have displayed unedifying behavior suited for a church bought with a price.

If we are to be confined to a house church because of being unable to find a good church or persecution in the future; that will no doubt strip some of the pride that has crept into the organized church leadership up until now.

Maranatha.

Hey Jonesdm1 - 7,

We are called by God, Matthew 22:14, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and the only way to the Father, John 14:6. Anyone can be baptized but he that believeth and is baptized will be saved, Mark 16:16. This is on us, it is our obedience to the Father, we must truly in our heart believe Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah/Christ, and our only hope of salvation, we cannot do that as a baby. It is not a ritual we can check a box on the way to salvation it is between us and God and it must be done in the name of Jesus that we see in the entire New Testament.

When we are baptized in the name of Jesus, what we see in the Bible, we are submerged in water, we die to sin, and are buried in death with Jesus, and when we are raised from the water we are raised into a new life in Christ. We are justified and our journey then begins with sanctification in our walk in the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

RLW

Jonesdm1, part 2

What is water baptism?

Colossians 2:11-12:

"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Romans 6:3:7:

"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7.For he that is dead is freed from sin.".

GBU

Hello Jonesdm1

I am not going to answer your questiond directly but I will give you some scripture which clarifies, I believe, everything about water baptism.

Acts 2:38. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 8:27-39, "27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and PREACHED UNTO HIM JESUS.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See,HERE IS WATER; WHAT DOTH HINDER ME TO BE BAPTIZED?

37And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST. And he answered and said,I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39And when they were COME UP OUT OF THE WATER the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, ..."

GBU

Thank you for writing out those answers!

This is the order that I was taught and still believe to be true based on my own study.

Acts 8:36-37 are some of the greatest verses about Baptism. Philip gives the conditions for baptism: That the individual must believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (this rules out babies being baptized). 1 Pet 3:21 states that it is a figure that is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Based on those two passages, I believe that Belief comes before Baptism.

Now to compare being Born again to Believing, but first, just to define terms, what does being born again mean? It is the same as quickening and regenerating ( Eph 2:1; Tit 3:5). It is a phase of our salvation when God revives us spiritually with His Holy Spirit. We are physically born dead in trespasses and sins ( Eph 2:1-3). When Adam cursed mankind in the garden of Eden he died spiritually that day. God told him he would die the day he ate the fruit ( Gen 2:17), but Adam lived up to 930 years ( Gen 5:5), so either God lied and the Devil was telling the truth ( Gen 3:4) or a different type of death occurred than physical that being spiritual.

Rom 8:7-8 are powerful verses about the state of the carnal mind. Without God's gift of the Holy Spirit we can do nothing that is pleasing to God. Without the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, we only have the old man, the flesh, the carnal mind that hates God without the new man and spiritual mind that wants to please God.

Okay, back to the order of B's... 1 John 2:29 says "every one that doeth righteousness IS born of him" not shall be born of him. If a man does righteousness it is proof that the righteous spirit of God dwells in him and that he was born, quickened, and regenerated to have a spirit that loves God.

Additionally, John 1:12 mentions those who believe on him, but the verse does not end with a period. The rest of the thought is that they WERE born of God ( John 1:13).

Born again, Believe, Baptism.

Oh, Lane, I will be praying for you to be renewed in the Lord in every way. You are loved by God and He desires You to have joy and life in Him. May he lift up your heart and fill it up with grace and faith.