Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2505

Page 3.

2. "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose". Before offering comment, I do read your quoted references so that I get the fullest picture of what you are saying, though in my understanding of those Scriptures, I generally fail to apply the connection you intend. If the future is created by God for His Purposes, then is He instrumental in creating things that are not of His Character as well? If "No", then where does His purpose in creating the future stop & evil begin (within the scope of His 'planned' Knowledge, of course)? I simply can't grapple with such a concept, as a Holy God can't create the future & also create a sin situation so that His Purposes may be fulfilled. An illustration: A doctor goes on a walk & pushes over a ladder that has a man standing high above just so that he would fall & break some bones (i.e. planning the Future), so that he could practise some medical work on him (i.e. fulfilling that plan). One could wonder what sort of doctor, indeed human being, is he! I think you can see how perplexed I am with such a teaching.

3. "God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in". And then you mention that the "world is rotten & we are putrid". We are talking about the intent of God to create a perfect world with perfect people so they might worship Him & enjoy Him. After the fall, of course, we indeed became putrid & the Purpose of God in Creation was thwarted (& yet, not without Him knowing all things, that this would happen). (onto Page 4).

Page 2.

1. Col 1:16": "..created for Christ". So after looking at the comments you make on this & indeed one of the central 'beliefs' you hold, 'is that creation's existence, is for the entrance of Christ into the world to accomplish God's Plan'. Then if I may ask: why should Christ need to come into the world in the first place? Christ didn't have any reason to come here, except for the fallen state of His created 'man'. You state, "What the Bible tells us is that all things were created FOR Christ to enter creation to accomplish God's Plan". Did God then create man so that Christ could come into the world to save him from sin's penalty? Then why not save Christ the trouble of coming by not creating man? But if it was His Plan to do so, then was He under compulsion to create man & his directive for him to sin, so that Christ could then come to save him, since He planned for Him to come? Does this then, make God a Supporter of evil so that His Plan could be accomplished? (I say this, trembling). Did Satan have no choice (or, maybe even prompted by God) to come & tempt man, & accomplish his purpose, so that Christ could come to save man? Then your comment would then make sense, "Corruption is an inevitable consequence of creation": God's creation was formed for the sole purpose of corruption so that His Christ could fulfil His Plan for removing that corruption. Where I have I misunderstood that understanding? And I beg your forgiveness, because what I've asked above is purely to try & understand concepts that I believe are strange to the meaning of Scripture; so I ask for more light on your beliefs. (onto Page 3).

Page 1.

Carlos, thanks for the time you've taken to deal with those points raised & apologies for taking time to respond. I should state, that my understanding of the Scriptures is not necessarily "what the modern Church has taught for the last few centuries", but from my own study of the Word & looking at cross references ensuring applicability. There are however, subjects that I would take the "modern Church" to task over which would only make this thread too ambiguous, if added here.

So, as I write, I do so from a careful consideration of the substance of the Scripture & using other Scriptures in support of it. You too have sent references, but as I studied them to see your point, I see that these references are based on & in the support of the assumptions you make & therefore they become strange to my reading as I see them in a different light & context. You mentioned the following: "All things have been created for Christ"; "The Future does not exist. The Future is created by God, for His Purpose"; "we are not the object of creation. Christ is"; "Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation"; & "God created to eradicate corruption", are most of what I was able to glean. Since dealing with all this becomes a lengthy exercise, I will try to attend to them briefly. (onto page 2).

Greetings Ken, Agreed we need to believe and depend on HIS WORKS, not our own.

However Jesus said some things to consider

Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Someone asked Jesus what was the most important commandment.

Matthew 22:36 - Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 - This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 - And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 - On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mark 6:12 - And they (12 apostles) went out, and preached that men should repent.

Jesus speaking in Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

and again Luke 13:5 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Repent of what?

Act 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 2:21 - And I gave her space to repent of her (SIN) fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit (SIN) adultery with her into great tribulation,

except they repent of their deeds.

Jesus speaking and telling the BELIEVING CHURCH IN EPHESUS TO REPENT

Revelation 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev 2:4 - Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,

and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Jesus told the believing church to repent...of what?

Thank you Carol. I guess there's not too much else to add to this conversation thread as we both are looking at this subject through different perspectives & the twain can never meet or be compromised. One view is obedience to the whole Law of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments), & the other, obedience to Jesus, the fulfilment of all of God's Law, indeed "For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth". ( Rom 10:4).

I don't need to make further comment here as it has all been said in my previous comments. The only emphasis I would add, is that the Law was only for the Jews & no one else. So had Jesus not come for our salvation & freedom from the awful consequences by disobedience to even one of those laws, then we Gentiles would be judged by the law written in our hearts & ultimately by our Great Judge Who would judge us by our 'failed' efforts to be righteous ( Rom 2: 14,15). And the Jews would have been judged by the Law, which they could never keep to the saving of their souls. ( Rom 3:20; 2:12). BUT in His Mercy, God sent His Son to save not only His people (Jews), but to open the door of salvation to us (Gentiles), who had no part in God's Plan for the Jews, but for the Mercy & Love of God to all of His creation, now included us Gentiles. If I seek to obey any of God's Laws, including the Sabbath, then I am judged by the Law & voluntarily exempt myself from salvation by Grace & not the Law. ( Rom 11:5,6: 'works' = working of the law).

Thank you for your time Carol; your comments are noted & appreciated.

Wisdom pays, foolishness pays. Choose your pay.

There is no other religion, institution, city or kingdom that matches the Bible antichrist the way the Papal Church of Rome does. It's a PERFECT match! And do you remember what we showed you above how satan wants to be IN PLACE OF God and Jesus? Well, he is using the Roman Catholic Church to take the place of Jesus on earth and cause the world to worship him through this church. Even John Paul II admitted in his book that the pope(s) TAKE THE PLACE OF Jesus on earth:

"The leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who TAKES THE PLACE of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.' (John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 3, 1994)

But the Bible clearly tells us that it is God's Spirit that takes the place of Jesus on earth. NOT the pope!

Remember: ANTI-Christ = IN PLACE OF-Christ = Roman Catholic Church!

The Man of Sin

12 - The man of sin is called 'the son of perdition' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Judas was the only other person to be called this.

13 - The man of sin 'sits in the temple of God professing to be like God' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:4). Meaning the man of sin sits in a leadership position in 'the professed church' acting like he is god.

There is only one man who matches this description perfectly, and that is the pope(s) of the Papal Church of Rome. 12 - Judas was also called 'the son of perdition' ( John 17:12). So calling the man of sin by this name also, means the man of sin would be like Judas - A DECEIVER FROM WITHIN THE CHURCH. 13 - The pope(s) sit in the Roman Catholic Church acting like he is god on earth giving out indulgences to forgive sins, which only our Heavenly Father can do and being called 'holy father', a title which only our Heavenly Father has ( Mark 10:18).

'Antichrists' in 1 John

14 - John confirms in 1 John 2 that those who were antichrists professed to be followers of Jesus, but 'went out' from the TRUE church and revealed themselves to not be true followers of the Lord.

14 - The leaders of the Roman Catholic Church profess to be followers of Jesus, but they have made manifest that they 'went out from' the TRUE church and it's true original teachings to follow after heresy and Pagan traditions.

To each his own. But, for Mr. Hernandes' sake when I sure hope when "your sons and daughters will prophesy" comes into play the women aren't given anything to say that he might need to listen to.

Hi bree this is Ken, God never said to turn from sin to be saved if you are hearing this which I would say 75% of all Christians who claim to be saved preach another gospel that Paul talked about one in which will not save this is why Christ says I never knew you when these people come to him and say we did all these things in your name we cast out demons and we prophesied in your name you see Jesus never said I knew you once and lost you because you kept sinning he said I never knew you because they believed that they had to turn from their sin that they had to get baptized that they said they had to give Jesus their heart that they had to make Jesus the Lord of their life see when you do all that and rely on that to assure you of your salvation you become the Savior and not Jesus if you take the Lord at his word hey you just have to Simply trust in his finished work that he traded places with you he took your sin and paid for them all of them past present and future and he gave you his perfect sinless righteousness as a free gift and if you would just simply receive this gift the Bible says that he gives you power to become the sons of God

Papal Rome is indeed not what Paul saw in his day. However the Bible defines what antichrist means.

1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (ALL Jews deny Jesus and that makes them antichrist, if they believed in Jesus then they would be CHRISTIANS. IF you do not believe me call any Synagogue and ask them if Jesus is the Messiah.) If they refuse to use the name Jesus as the angel Gabriel named him and use Yeshua I suspect they may not what be they claim to be

1 John 2:23 - Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If Jews do not accept Jesus as messiah, then who is their messiah?

1 Corinthians 16:22 - If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (CURSED) Maranatha.

DO JEWS LOVE JESUS OR ARE THEY CURSED?

Rome did not kill Jesus. John 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Pilate wanted to release Jesus.

King James Bible book of John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST

I agree. As we read the Bible, we come up with slightly different perspectives and one of those has to do with the time of the Rapture.

Please, show me your timeline of events recorded in Scripture about the End Time? I will list mine below. Please clarify. Thanks.

1. THE ANTICHRIST. Daniel 7-12

Daniel 9:27 - And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

2. THE ANTICHRIST EXALTS HIMSELF OVER GOD IN THE TEMPLE.

Matthew 24:15 - when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation

3. THE GREAT TRIBUALTION.

Matthew 24:21 - at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world

Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 20:4 - I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the Beast.

4. THE COMING OF CHRIST and RAPTURE.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him

Matthew 24:3 - when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming

Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation

Daniel 7:13 - and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven

1 Thessalonians 4 - we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Mark 13:26 - At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.d And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Revelation 18:4, - Come out of her, My people.

19:1f For the marriage of the Lamb.

Jesse I suspect you do not understand the difference between judgment of the Church, the wrath of satan and the wrath of God. Please allow me to explain.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If anyone chooses to disbelieve that the woman here is the bride of Christ, that is on them. well if there is show me from the scriptures please I want to know.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE one in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

There is only one bride, there is not a Jewish bride and another Christian Gentile brideS

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth (angry) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Getting killed for Christ is not the wrath of God, otherwise Stephen, the prophets and the apostles who were killed suffered the wrath of God which is ridiculous.

Noah was saved in the flood, Daniel was saved in the Lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children were saved in the furnace.

God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked world, just like the plagues of Egypt. God's children did not suffer the plagues of Egypt and neither will his children in the tribulation who survive the wrath of the Satan.

You should do a little history on the fate of the millions of Christians murdered in Communist Russia under Stalin.

All we hear about is the 6 million.

Papal Rome is the beast, and anti christ I will let them tell you themseves.

The word "anti" in antichrist does not mean someone who is going to be openly anti (against) Christ. That word "anti" in the original Bible language can actually mean "IN PLACE OF". So could the bible antichrist be someone who has actually put himself "in place of" Christ? Well, we have further Bible evidence to support this. In 1 John 2:18-19 it says that there were "many antichrists", who "WENT OUT FROM THE CHURCH". In other words, John is pointing to the fact that those "antichrists" were WITHIN THE CHURCH!! Not only that, but Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 calls the man of sin the "son of perdition". Now there is only one other place in the Bible where the name "son of perdition" is used, and that is in John 17:12 talking about JUDAS! And what was Judas? A professing follower of Christ Jesus. Someone who deceived from WITHIN the "church".

"The leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who TAKES THE PLACE of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity." (John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 3, 1994).

"ANTI" - Christ = "IN PLACE OF" Christ!

Chris, you are exactly right. I share your feelings. Thanks for clarifying on Confused. Genesis 10 outlines the beginning of the new generations from which Christ would enter the world. But there is something in the entire account of the Noahic account and the Ark that brings up a very important questions.

Did Noah only have 3 kids in the 950 years he lived?

Why did God spare Noah and his family, considering they were as corrupt as everyone else?

Why not just start creation all over again, in a setting that wasn't as conducive to sin, rebellion, disobedience and corruption?

We covered some of this in our previous discussions, but more is better.

I would not believe in any witches because as it says on lev19:31 neither seek after wizards so if I were you I wouldn't watch or read any harry poter books

help me to understand Genesie 10: 2+3

The Bible is replete with references to the Wrath of God. With reference to the End Times, what exactly is John referring to when he speaks of the Wrath of God?

Additionally, is there a relationship between the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord?

In a recent conversation with a friend, I asked if she understood and could explain why keeping the Sabbath was so important to God, that He would even include it in the 10 Commandments.

What is it about the Sabbath that means so much?

Acts Chapter 2.

Hi Carlos,

No apology needed. It just seemed sort of odd when I saw that because all your previous posts have all been very cordial. I have actually had that happen to one of my posts where things got added in that I did not type.

I think the most important thing concerning the rapture is that we both agree that there will be a rapture. We don't have to agree with each other on the time.

There are Pre/Mid/Post rapture believers and they all have scripture to back up why they take one of those three positions.

Like I said to Bob, I don't have an issue with whatever of the three positions someone chooses to take.

Thank you for breaking this down i just had someone tell me that i needed to know what gate i was going in because if i wasn't in the 144,000 i wasn't one of Gods chosen to make it to heaven no matter if i repented and turned away from my sins and was living a Christ like life. I was very puzzled like why growing up in church i was taught that if you live faithful and serve God without sin that I will make it to heaven when he returns to receive his bride the church. I was very lost and confused but your comment cleared up my confusion. Thank you

Hi Bob,

Why is the rapture a hotly contested thing? That is a great question Bob. We could also ask why do we disagree on anything the Bible has to say? Believers disagree on all sorts of things that the Bible teaches.

I think disagreements become hotly contested when those in disagreement with each other take the attitude of "I'm right, and you're wrong." It's called human pride. We take our understanding of scripture and we turn ourselves into "Bible scholars." You know, it's like the "Thus saith Jesse," or "Thus saith Bob" approach.

I think another reason why believers disagree with each other so often is because we study our English bibles, and English is such a general language, much like Hebrew.

We can come away with multiple meanings on what the English text is saying because there are multiple meanings to English words. Honestly, I think that's why we have so many denominational churches out there. It's because people can't agree on what the English text is saying.

I think it was God's design that our New Testament be originally written in Greek. Greek is the most exact language there is, and you don't come away with multiple meanings on what the text is saying like we do with the English.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on your question.

I am curious though. If the Tribulation period comes in our lifetime, what will your role be during those 7 years? I don't think it will be to spread the gospel. God already has a plan for that. What will be your function on this earth when God's wrath is being poured out?

I asked God to prove to me, it was His will for me not to wear pants. He did. When I first started wearing only skirts and dresses, woman noticed and started commenting on it. Most were somehow offended by it. Some pressed me to stop. Some were convicted by it but it was the response of the men which convinced me the most. Men, young, old and in between started being more respectful towards me. One young man, littered with tattoos, came back and opened the door for me at a store with a perplexed look on his face. He seem confused about doing it. He let it shut on the woman behind me. God showed me it was for my protection and worth. It is a testimony to the world; a blessing to me.

I have always considered Psalm 1 great instruction to live by , I'm most impressed with the first word " Blessed " if we are doing it right we are truly blessed .

Also the unGodly can not give good advice . Ask God for wisdom , it's found through out the Bible ...

I challenge the women to do what I did when this scripture got on my mind. I wore pants just like every other Christian woman I knew. Then one day this came up in a Sunday School lesson. I read it and thought about it. I did not want to be disgusting to God or for Him to hate what I wore. I loved Him and wanted to be pleasing to him but I did not want to give up my pants. So I was honest with Him, after all, He knows what we are thinking. I said, I want to be pleasing to you but I don't want to stop wearing pants. I told Him, if you want me to stop wearing them, make me, help me to want to, you need to convict me. It took time. I felt pressed to test it. The results were amazing.

Just like when you write an essay, the first paragraph is a summary and what follows is more detail of what your subject matter is.

It seems to me that in chapter 1, YHWH is giving a summary of all things He created. Then in chapter 2, He retells the story with more specifics and detail. Eve is the one who was created to be with Adam, but YHWH goes into more detail about how she was created in chapter 2. There is no Lilith.

You are right. God gives us the Word to make our lives better not worse. By making our own rules and deciding we know best......well the results are not pretty. It is all about trust and obedience. You can trust Him to know what is best for you, because HE designed you OR you can trust in what you think is right. What does scripture say. Proverbs 16:25. For those of you who are reading this thread, look this scripture up.

Amen! What you said is truth!