Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 2507

What does 2 Esdras 2:18 mean about twelve trees

Carlos, just a quick follow up on my comment: I just saw your comment to Bethany, re: 1 Tim 2:12, so I can appreciate maybe the "control over others" issue you raised. I won't comment on that other one to Bethany here, as it will make this thread ambiguous, nor will I comment on it over there, but I'm sure it will appear in this thread in due course.

Carlos, I heartily agree with your comments brother (as I usually do, though squeezing in some subtle reservations, if I may!). So here we go: I realize that there will always be those who seek to bring believers back into bondage to sets of rules which are unnecessary, unbiblical & burdensome; and these are enforced to bring its adherents into a position of bondage, clothed in the garb of Scriptural mandate & "being of one mind & belief". Sometimes, such rules are not altogether wrong, but if they produce exclusivity & alienation from other 'believers', which again is not in God's Plan, then we must be warned.

However, you do not specify in what ways some are using "the Bible as a Book of Rules through which to control people". I know the matters of Church conduct, whether in dress, speech, usage of spiritual Gifts, etc. have come up here & I certainly have shared in some of them, but as much as I believe that these topics are not dealt with, either within the Word or amongst believers, in an authoritarian manner, I suspect that some might find a strict adherence to such matters concerning & not in line with the freedom we have in Christ. In my input in this Discussion space, I always ensure that my comments are biblically based (with references where needed), & so it is then a matter of correct 'dividing of the Word' that comes to the fore. Yet, there can still be room for objection in this, & I think that is where the matter lies: is one being too legalistic or judgemental by stating the facts laid out in Scripture? Or, at which point does the biblical mandate become open to more relaxed/liberal views? And then, who decides on this point, or do we leave the matter open-ended & a sense of a 'do what you feel is best for you'. And a further point: should we have a swipe at the apostles, who in the main, have so directed us?

Anyway, just a few thoughts that come to mind; & these of course, may well be off the mark to your purpose in writing.

I was watching utube videos on bible studies. I literally typed bible studies. The video mentioned a book that is very old athour very well know. Inferno.He did say that people have threw time claimed facts as being from the bible which were actually from inferno. But he brought up some facts about the bible and lilith and then he told her history and i got very confused on what was fact.

Thank you for your response!

Always a good solid prayer, I like to included the Lord's prayer along with it seems like it should be that way. Add psalm 70 for good measure.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found?

In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation. If you find it let me know.

Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago. Look into the lives of those who promoted this doctrine, like C.I. Scofield and you might consider this very suspect. Jesus said by their fruit ye shall know them.

Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST first the TARES (WEEDS) and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, then wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?

Jesse no one believed in pre trib until 1830 AD believe what you wish but it makes a difference. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt it. Question: How many million Christian died in communism the last 100 years?

Hello, divorce is a sin. Matthew 5:32. Please read the whole chapter to see what God thinks about divorce. There's only few exceptions such as if your wife betrayed your vows and cheated on you. May God bless you and your decisions.

Bob,

I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and I have never once made the claim that there is a second phase of the first resurrection listed in Revelation 20:4-6. Did someone tell you that? There is only one rapture of the church and it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and it takes place prior to the 7 year tribulation period. That is my understanding, and not just mine, but many others.

If you want to believe you will go through God's wrath during the tribulation period, if it happens during our lifetime, I don't have a problem with that. Really, I don't. I don't know why it would bother you that I believe in a pre-trib rapture? From my understanding in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God has not appointed us believers unto wrath, so I do not believe that God is going to pour His judgment out on any believer.

Again, if you believe you're going to be there when His wrath is being poured out, I don't have an issue with that. If I may ask, since you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, are you mid-trib, or post-trib? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with what you are saying. And I hope you are not accusing me of adding to the bible. You are also in disagreement with me, but I would never make such an accusation against anyone for simply disagreeing with my understanding.

Yes we are to do what the word of God instructs is to do .

But first we must realize that not doing it is sin .

So we repent and ask the Lord to empower us to do it by His spirit .

The first step is why are we not doing it ?

The Lord will help us do it , ask Him for wisdom .

The hardest part is owning up to the reality we are not doing , and can't without His Spirit .

When truly repentant in a matter or salvation , we then will be able to be led by the Holy Spirit and enjoy our obedience . I hope this helps .

Amen and Amen. Though, I understand that in the Millenium period, Jesus Christ will rule, but in the New Jerusalem, prepared and coming down from Heaven, God will reign with His people: "Behold, the Tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God". ( Rev 21:3).

Question: If a man is living with a women and has a child with that women, then leaves this 1st women for another, Then decides to marry 2nd women, and he becomes a Christian. No he wants to return to the 1st. Also wanting to divorce the 2nd women his present wife. What can he do? or what must he do?

Emil, a definite NO: Hitler can NEVER be referred to as God's Minister. If for nothing else, he did everything that was opposed to the Bible & the Message of Love & Compassion that were Jesus' foundational teaching. I think you may have heard something that has made you wonder about Hitler's religious stance, rather than your personal belief. I truly hope it's not your belief.

From a religious viewpoint, you're correct, he was raised a Roman Catholic & received its rites, though always in conflict with its teachings, indeed of Christianity itself. Hitler, was essentially a megalomaniac (one who is mentally ill resulting in delusions of greatness about himself; & we likely have some around us now!) & a Gnostic, who, in one of its beliefs, considers one's own knowledge & mental prowess, to be above virtue & godliness. If anything, he was AN anti-Christ, of whom some in his day, even considered him to be THE one, but as Mickey has well described him: he is "like a choir boy compared to what the Antichrist has planned for the world". An apt description, as if a German (or an ally) was obedient & subservient to the Nazi philosophy & rules, then he got on okay; just as in the day of The Anti-Christ, when one is fully obedient to him. If any opposed him, the results would be horrific.

Bob Hilt, your observation of the two resurrections is an entirely new and logical argument for me. I had never heard it said that way. The point is well made. If it were not so, there would have to be at least, 3 resurrections. Great point! Thank you.

Jesse, to take up where I left off, Daniel 7-12 gives us a good picture of who the Restrainer is in 2Thess2:6. He says it is Israel. And he also states that Israel will be defeated when Persia comes against it. And that is what was holding the full flood of destruction against the Church and the Jews. Dan8:24 and 12:7, "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." Compare this to 2Thess2:6, "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way." Whom does Daniel say will be shattered, destroyed and taken out of the way? The Jewish nation and the influence of the Church.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, since 2:6 is abundantly clear. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM.... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

As I previously mentioned, the AntiChrist doesn't sit in the Holy of Holies to proclaim himself God until the middle of the 7 years week. Daniel 7-12 and Matthew 24 make that clear. But the Rapture is not in the middle of the week. Jesus emphasizes He will come, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation Matt24:21, 29. The 7 years Tribulation begins. Three years into it, the AntiChrist crowns himself God in the Temple. "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and never shall be."

What happens after the AntiChrist sits in the Temple? The Great Tribulation. Then what happens? Matt24, Daniel 7-12, 2Thess2. The Gathering. The Rapture. Therefore, according to what has been said in the cited passages, when is the Rapture?

Trinity is not a Bible word, but Godhead is.

1 Thess 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Paul says spirit and soul and body)

Isaiah 10:18 - And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. (Body and Soul different)

Matthew 10:28 - Jesus said: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ..........destroy both soul and body in hell.

Isaiah 26:9 - With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Soul and Spirit are different)

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

.... dividing asunder of soul and spirit, (the word of God divides the soul and spirit)

so the Bible ALONE teaches man has a body and a soul and a spirit = 3 parts = 1 man

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So IF one man is Body, Soul and Spirit which is 3 parts and God made man in HIS IMAGE

How many parts is God? 3? a Godhead? or trinity?

Nella, I had a read of the whole chapter of Zechariah 1, particularly v 15, & wondered how you were looking at this verse. Do you feel that the LORD, Who is sovereign over all people & all things, only shows a great displeasure in the heathen standing against Israel, rather than doing something about it?

In this vision (or, dream) that came to Zechariah, the main message to the prophet was that though Israel would suffer at the hands of their enemies (& mostly because of Israel's own sin & disobedience), there would be a day coming when their enemies (now at ease), will be the ones to be dealt with by the LORD (Zech chap 12). This is a wonderful book depicting how God would one day (in the last days) re-visit His people & re-vitalize them with His Spirit, beginning with His Branch (Messiah, Jesus) of which Joshua was used as a type ( Zech 6:12). I'm sure present day Israel would be resting their hope in the surety of this prophetical book, but in grief they will see the Branch Whom they crucified coming to judge them & rule over them one day.

So, the 'Sovereignty of God' is not in question in that verse 15, nor in other similar verses that seemingly shows God 'doing nothing about the situation'. Rather, it again shows to us of how God is concerned about His people & will allow suffering to come to them for their learning but will surely intervene at His appointed Time when He will shower them with His blessings.

I find it interesting that James letter is written to the twelve tribes of Israel . Not all Israel is Israel , but the Israel of God is in Christ .

The 12 apostles will rule over the twelve tribes in the kingdom as well . In Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile . Interesting !

Angela, from research, I've learned that Noph & Tahapanes were cities in Egypt; afterwards called Memphis (for Noph) & Alcairo, or Grand Cairo (for Tahapanes). At the time of Jeremiah, these cities were allies with Israel & in whom Israel put their trust when attacked. However, something happened in this alliance & these Egyptian cities turned against Israel (it may have happened when Pharoahnecho, king of Egypt went to war against the king of Assyria, & Judah's king Josiah went to help but instead was killed & his son Jehoahaz was eventually taken captive to Egypt after being temporarily crowned. You can read it in 2 Kings 23:29-35).

So that these Egyptian cities "have broken the crown off thy head", refers to Pharoahnecho's slaying of Judah's king & making Israel subservient to Egypt.

Ecclesiastes 7:1 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

Christianity has never prohibited marriage. Nor has it upheld celibacy as a "holier" approach than married sexuality.

I hope you are doing ok Richard. God bless.

As someone who suffers from Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Social Anxiety and for 5 years suffered from Agoraphobia, I want to say that anyone, like Richard who may suffer from these disorders, are NOT what Jesus was referring to in the parable of the 4 seeds.

Someone with anxiety disorder does not lack faith, but is entirely reliant on God even to do small things, that other people find insignificant, ie, answering the phone. Life becomes a cross to carry, that is unique, but is entirely centered on God, and is a sacrifice that is able to be offered to God.

Richard you did not choose your anxiety, but God will help you through it.

The anxiety Jesus was referring to, was anxiety about worldly things, ie what will I wear, eat, drink, how much money can I make, I need friends in high places, etc. These are necessities, and God promises to provide these things, so we do not need to worry about it.

Anxiety disorders are mental illnesses that can be totally unrelated to things of this world. And just because someone is not healed or cured, doesnt show a lack of faith. Otherwise would be say all Christian's who died from cancer lacked faith? Or what about those with type 1 diabetes, should we tell them to stop taking insulin, and if they dont then they lack faith?

2 Corinthians 12:8-10

"Three times I appealed to the Lord about this, that it would leave me, but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." So, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong."

Jesse, first of all, let me apologize for the 'hello'. I don't see where it is, but if it showed in the post you saw, it was totally unintentional. My intent is to have a proper discussion of the matter, not berate or belittle anyone. Capitalization is to highlight for emphasis.

First of all, there is no distinction drawn whatsoever in the OT or New, between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Jesus never mentions it. And in fact, the only time He speaks of it is in Matt24, Mk13 and Lk21. In 2Thess2, Paul reiterates what Christ said.

So where does the distinction between the 2nd Coming and the Rapture come from? Belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture comes from the inference drawn from Revelation 1-3. There is no actual statement referred to, other than that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3. Somehow, that is taken to mean the Church disappears, although nothing actually suggests such a thing. The conclusion drawn that Believers are Raptured, from absence of a mention of the Church again, is fallacious. No such conclusion is warranted.

However, what is rarely mentioned is there will be Believers, consequently a thriving Church, during the last 3 years of the Great Tribulation. Compare Rev11:4-12 and 1:20. See also Rev13:10, "Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints." 14:10-12, "This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." 6:9, 12:11, 17, 20:4. Rev7:14, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Another specious argument is that Saints refers to Jews, not Christians. But that is debunked by Philemon1:5, Rev17:6, "I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus."

The fact remains that nothing anywhere refers to a PreTrib Rapture. The language and images for the Rapture are the same in Matt, These, Rev and Daniel 7-12 on Restrainer.

WHEN IS THE RAPTURE / RESURRECTION?

In Revelation 20:4-6 the last book of the Bible there are only 2 more FUTURE Resurrections (Raptures) spoken of: after the 2 witnesses appear

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. rapture

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In the above scriptures, these are the Martyrs. John said "this is the first resurrection." John didn't say this is the "second phase of the first resurrection," as pre-tribbers claim.

If this is the FIRST resurrection, can there be a resurrection before this one? Of course not, unless you want to ADD to the bible

The First Resurrection is of the dead in Christ and the Second is after 1000 years. Paul wrote that the Dead in Christ MUST rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 ...and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST

17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

In Rev. 20:4-5, John sees the souls of Saints who were BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. John writes that they will rise and reign with Christ for 1000 years and that this is the FIRST RESURRECTION!

the beheaded rise in the FIRST resurrection and Paul said those who are alive and remain are not caught up until AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, then this comes at the end of the tribulation.

Albert, further to what Bob has shared: I believe there is confusion on the meaning of the word 'tongue'. Sadly, it is often interpreted as some special uttering that may or may not be known to us. Hence, as some who have this 'gift' have said to me, that a 'tongue' could be an earthly language or a heavenly language. But is this what the Scripture, indeed all of Scripture on this subject implies?

In such situations, I wish I could altogether remove the word, 'tongue', & just insert 'unknown or unlearned language' as it clearly implies in Scripture, i.e. a language in existence on Earth, but which has not been learned by the utterer. When this gift came upon men showing the arrival & indwelling of the Holy Spirit in people, they always spoke in a language that they had not learned but it was a language that was known by someone else. Thus, the 'tongue' served absolutely no purpose unless it was for the benefit of another (e.g. as evidence to the unsaved & to hear God's message to them, or God's Word to believers, if only it came with interpretation).

And to those dear, well meaning believers so 'gifted', also suggested to me, a non-gifted 'tongue' believer, that if no 'tongue' came out of me, then I should just 'start babbling something to start the process going'! Of course, an extreme, perverted understanding of the Gift, but it showed to me, as a new Christian, the lengths they would go to give such importance to this least of all gifts. The only occasion of when this 'gift' is used other than what I've indicated here, is when there is none to interpret it, that it is used not publicly, but in his/her prayer to God & be edified through it ( 1 Cor 14:28).

What the bible says about the trinity

Sackcloth and ashes is extreme mourning and / or repentance. sackcloth was rough uncomfortable for clothing. Sitting in ashes was dirty and I suppose symbolic of being dirty and burn out? It is humility before the Lord

2 Samuel 3:31 And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier.

Genesis 37:34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.

Nehemiah 9:1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

Psalms 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.

Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

There is a lot to digest here, Chris. You bring up very good points. To your point b. Paul says "evil company corrupts good morals." Most people that engage in criminal activity or become addicted to something, experience a draw or deterioration over time. The devil, for example, did not corrupt instantly. Ezk28 tells us it became noticeable. He didn't wake up one day and say to himself, "Lucifer, today I become the devil." Even your analogy of dye in the glass requires a process. First it has to filter through the water. Then it becomes noticeable as the water changes color. God told the Israelites that although they wanted things done quickly, He had a Plan and it was in the works. Who said, "You have need of patience...". But the most obvious example of the process is Christ's appearance at the appointed time.

The Genesis story of the Garden is not complete. It is simplistic to believe Eve ate a fruit and she was instantly poisoned. There is more to the story. See Songs 2. She sat by the shade of the Tree. She contemplated its fruit. She was attracted to its glitter. And so was Adam. They were created in innocence. They were coaxed to become involved with the devil. God told them He did not want them to have anything to do with that Tree. By the way, what kind of tree was it? Were there any others like it? Or was it one of a kind? What does the Bible say? There were two Trees in the Garden. WHO were they? One bite and Eve became instantly aware of the difference between good and evil? Back to Paul, evil company...

Sorry, the quote on those that didn't sin same as Adam is found in Rom5:13-15. I hope I am doing this reading justice. What does it mean?

Your point c. God created to eradicate corruption. That's clear from Dan9:24 and others. If God created with a Plan and a Purpose, then sin was a consequence of creation. God created with the knowledge and understanding corruption would materialize with creation. No creation, no corruption.

Chris, I left off in point #3.

The purpose of creation from the very beginning, was Christ. God didn't create us so we could enjoy Him and have a wonderful world to live in, although we can enjoy that and are promised that as Believers. The fact is, the world is rotten and we are putrid.

People argue it is the fault of Free Will. But that is also a stretch. The Bible never says anything to that effect. We might have been created with the ability to choose, but our poor choices are the result of a corrupted nature. A perfect nature wouldn't sin. God didn't put Satan in the middle of the Garden to adorn it. Corruption was an inevitable consequence of creation. The Angels rebelled. Men disobeyed. Eph4:22, Mk7:21, Rom1:21, Jer17:5.

A look at Scripture shows Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, death, to take away pain, suffering and establish eternal perfection (Dan9:24, 1Cor15:50). In Rom 8-10 we're told God placed us and all creation, to include Angels, in a corruptible creation, so He could fix the problem of corruption. See 1John3:8, Heb9:26, Eph1:11, 3:11. God's Will and Purpose cannot be thwarted.

Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' 48:7 - They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' 46:11 -I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.' I summon a bird of prey from the east, a man for My purpose from a far-off land. Truly I have spoken, truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, I will surely do it.

My point is God created with a Plan, a Purpose. He did not create knowing His creation was going to fail and He would have to rescue it. He created specifically to destroy so much as the potential for corruption ( Heb 2:14).

Carlos,

First I want to address the areas you place in all caps because right away those are the areas that catch my attention. Either you are trying to emphasize your point, or you are trying to show me something you think I do not understand. First, you say He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. I believe that's accurate. And then you say Christ won't come until AFTER the Abomination exalts himself above God in the Temple. I agree with that. And then you say after that Great Tribulation, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL HE APPEAR. Again, I agree. And you also say there is only ONE Second Coming. I'm fully aware of that. And then finally you say PREPARE! Hello. What is the hello? Would that be the same as saying Duh?

We both agree that there is one second coming of Christ. And we both agree that it will be after the 7 year Tribulation period. What we disagree on is the time of the rapture of the church. I think our understanding of what takes place at His second coming differs. What I am gathering from you is that you see us being raptured at His second coming. Would that be a safe assumption on my part?

I see His second coming and the rapture of the church as being two separate events. When He comes for the church at the rapture, we meet Him in the air. He does not step down onto the earth at that time. At His second coming, after the 7 year Tribulation, that is when He steps foot on the earth. Plus, at His second coming, we come back with Him. There is no rapture at His second coming.

The Great Tribulation, last 3-1/2 years, is going to be a time of such wrath upon this earth like we have never seen before. We can't even begin to imagine how horrible a time it's going to be. During the time of God's wrath being poured out, there is no mention of the church being on the earth, only ungodly unbelievers.



I commend you for doing a careful study of the scripture. That's what we are all supposed to do, right?